Carrying Three Regulators

[Dtaine]

Sorry if you took offense. That was my poor attempt at humor. The point is that DIR is not a *relatively* minimalist gear configuration, but it incorporates a *strictly* minimalist gear configuration. You really should not throw out the D word unless you are ready to walk the walk. You will attract fire every time.

For all the reasons I have already articulated, DIR divers do not carry ponies.

no worries, I've definitely felt that fire before :flame:

 

[sotgecho]

Sorry if you took offense. That was my poor attempt at humor. The point is that DIR is not a *relatively* minimalist gear configuration, but it incorporates a *strictly* minimalist gear configuration. You really should not throw out the D word unless you are ready to walk the walk. You will attract fire every time.

For all the reasons I have already articulated, DIR divers do not carry ponies.

No we don't carry a pony it is called our buddy.

 

[Twiddles]

Thanks again everyone. One final question on the sharing of "gas" from the main tank with a single regulator? Why is this an issue? I am carrying a pony why do you need access to my tank? If for some unknown, unforseeable reason you do, why cant we share a regulator? I mean we are talking about something that is remote in the extreme aren't we? We would need two simultaneous major malfunctions to require you to need access to my main tanks air. At least it seems that way to me.

 

[Dtaine]

No we don't carry a pony it is called our buddy.

How many times do I have to say I'm not a DIR diver? Geez, utter three letters and you invoke a firestorm.

Thanks again everyone. One final question on the sharing of "gas" from the main tank with a single regulator? Why is this an issue? I am carrying a pony why do you need access to my tank? If for some unknown, unforseeable reason you do, why cant we share a regulator? I mean we are talking about something that is remote in the extreme aren't we? We would need two simultaneous major malfunctions to require you to need access to my main tanks air. At least it seems that way to me.

My reasoning for this is that it's easy to keep the minimum gas reserve for both divers in the main tank. By doing this both divers access the main tank first in an air-sharing situation (see my previous "checklist"), then the decision is made to either continue sharing air or for the one diver to hand off the smaller bottle. Do you need to do this? No, of course not, but it's a matter of personal preference.

 

[atedeschi]

Thanks again everyone. One final question on the sharing of "gas" from the main tank with a single regulator? Why is this an issue? I am carrying a pony why do you need access to my tank? If for some unknown, unforseeable reason you do, why cant we share a regulator? I mean we are talking about something that is remote in the extreme aren't we? We would need two simultaneous major malfunctions to require you to need access to my main tanks air. At least it seems that way to me.

There is no reason when carrying a pony to have both divers breathing of the main tank. Also if everyone started carrying ponies you can save your own butt.

 

[wedivebc]

Thanks again everyone. One final question on the sharing of "gas" from the main tank with a single regulator? Why is this an issue? I am carrying a pony why do you need access to my tank? If for some unknown, unforseeable reason you do, why cant we share a regulator? I mean we are talking about something that is remote in the extreme aren't we? We would need two simultaneous major malfunctions to require you to need access to my main tanks air. At least it seems that way to me.

You are absolutely right, no contingency plan is designed to include multiple failures. If that were the case we would have to carry a regulator for every diver we were in the water with and a spare in case our primary failed.
The scenario of either yourself or another diver needing air in an OOA situation is unlikely but possible. Anything more is just preposterous.
If I were you I would ditch the extra second stage on your main reg, sling a pony of sufficient quantity to get either you or a buddy out of trouble (and that should include a nice slow ascent with safety stop). You do not need to have sufficient gas in a redundant breathing system to get 2 divers up, you already have your breathing system. I would also recommend you keep your pony bottle situated so that you can remove and pass it off to an OOA diver should you need some room to deploy a SMB or any number of other tasks.

 

[ClayJar]

The answer is that going with doubles is the optimal way to dive. It solves all the problems in the simplest, most reliable fashion.

There is no reason when carrying a pony to have both divers breathing of the main tank.

I can quite easily come up with scenarios for which doubles are unequivocally not the optimal way to dive, and I can quite easily come up with reason to have two divers breathing off the back gas of a diver who also has a pony. I'm rather sure anyone could do the same if they put their mind to it.

If you include a few default assumptions (NDL dives, open water, just you and your buddy with nobody else around), the general case would likely show that carrying an alternate second stage for back gas is adding complication for quite negligible practical value. On the other hand, unqualified absolutes ought not be tossed about with such fervor and abandon.

Perhaps I'm leading a dive with a family of vacation divers. Perhaps one of them other than my buddy has a hose failure. They are perfectly capable of sharing air with their buddy and going to the surface, but I would consider it a better solution for me to hand off my pony to the affected diver in order to make their ascent easier. Obviously, I cannot hand off the pony if it would leave me with no alternate on hand, as to do so would be abrogating my responsibility to my buddy.

Now, is that a valid reason for having an alternate second stage on my back gas even though I have the pony? I would say it is. Might someone else say that the other divers have sole responsibility for themselves, therefore I should not consider that situation? If someone chooses to reason that way, that is certainly their prerogative, but it does not make either choice the "correct" answer. To me, having three second stages adds a small and manageable level of risk to my person, in exchange for which I have more options available to address situations that may be encountered by someone less capable.

There is almost always some reason why something that is not optimal in the general case may be the optimal solution for a specific case. If this were the basic forum or an introductory-level class, those exceptions that illustrate the rule would almost certainly be ignored. This, however, is advanced scuba discussions, where reasoning reigns and fiat has no value, no matter how often or vigorously posted.

 

[wedivebc]

Perhaps I'm leading a dive with a family of vacation divers. Perhaps one of them other than my buddy has a hose failure. They are perfectly capable of sharing air with their buddy and going to the surface, but I would consider it a better solution for me to hand off my pony to the affected diver in order to make their ascent easier. Obviously, I cannot hand off the pony if it would leave me with no alternate on hand, as to do so would be abrogating my responsibility to my buddy.

If you opt to help this diver then you and your buddy would ascend with said diver (and your pony bottle). If the OOA needs your help then you would be foolish not to see them to the surface.
You are envisioning a scenario where you can render assistance then continue with your dive then you better bring 2 spare regs in case some random OOA diver should come along. For that matter why not 3 extra regs?

 

[atedeschi]

I can quite easily come up with scenarios for which doubles are unequivocally not the optimal way to dive, and I can quite easily come up with reason to have two divers breathing off the back gas of a diver who also has a pony. I'm rather sure anyone could do the same if they put their mind to it.

If you include a few default assumptions (NDL dives, open water, just you and your buddy with nobody else around), the general case would likely show that carrying an alternate second stage for back gas is adding complication for quite negligible practical value. On the other hand, unqualified absolutes ought not be tossed about with such fervor and abandon.

Perhaps I'm leading a dive with a family of vacation divers. Perhaps one of them other than my buddy has a hose failure. They are perfectly capable of sharing air with their buddy and going to the surface, but I would consider it a better solution for me to hand off my pony to the affected diver in order to make their ascent easier. Obviously, I cannot hand off the pony if it would leave me with no alternate on hand, as to do so would be abrogating my responsibility to my buddy.

Now, is that a valid reason for having an alternate second stage on my back gas even though I have the pony? I would say it is. Might someone else say that the other divers have sole responsibility for themselves, therefore I should not consider that situation? If someone chooses to reason that way, that is certainly their prerogative, but it does not make either choice the "correct" answer. To me, having three second stages adds a small and manageable level of risk to my person, in exchange for which I have more options available to address situations that may be encountered by someone less capable.

There is almost always some reason why something that is not optimal in the general case may be the optimal solution for a specific case. If this were the basic forum or an introductory-level class, those exceptions that illustrate the rule would almost certainly be ignored. This, however, is advanced scuba discussions, where reasoning reigns and fiat has no value, no matter how often or vigorously posted.

Not a good reason, because even if you have to 2nds you, lost your pony. the dive should be called, the reason you diving a pony is because it is safer, not to hand it off so someone doesn't ruin your dive. Also you should not leave a distressed diver & panic diver, and like i said before in the post, i OOA diver is going to rip your reg out and try to surface pulling you along.


OP, one 2nd on your main and one pony bottle, thats the way you should set it up.

 

[Dtaine]

I think we're beating the dead horse enough here.