Carolinas: Broad River: Diver In Critical, Any News?

[agilis]

I thank you for the wiggle room, I do agree with the reasons not to do it.

There is a difference between inadvertently going OOA and intentionally breathing the tank down. The former will more likely induce panic with poor outcomes as indicated by the DAN study. The latter is not a problem unless something goes wrong, as with any endeavor.



Bob

I apologize for my intemperate language and sweeping generalization. I should have written 'intentionally breathing your tank down to zero while submerged is usually a most unwise thing to do', or words to that effect.

It's not so much draining the tank to empty that creates danger, it's what happens next. I can't imagine why a sane rational adult would breath their tank down to zero pressure during a dive, but if one plans carefully enough to calmly anticipate the penultimate unobstructed breaths, and if one is doing this for some kind of research, for reasons other than extending the dive by a few silly minutes, the description of imbecile is too harsh.

On the other hand, if the OOA situation comes unexpectedly while submerged, and if the feckless diver's reaction has even a modest element of desperation about it, the consequences can be dramatic and unfortunate. When I was young and stupid (the two are difficult to separate) I did quite a few foolish things, some so risky that I shudder to recall. Mea culpa. I do not claim any exemption from the mental lapses that afflict our species.

I was lucky enough to have survived the consequences of my foolishness, and now find myself transmogrified into a censorious white haired pontificator preaching the annoyingly obvious, muttering things like "check your SPG often", "keep your head down until the noise stops" and "never volunteer".

 

[Bob DBF]

I apologize for my intemperate language and sweeping generalization.

No apology necessary, I was not planning on looking through my welding gear for a gauntlet.

Since I bought an SPG, I have not unintionally gone OOA. I wear the SPG on my upper left D-ring so all I have to do is glance, possibly caused by indescressions in my youth.

I have been trying to avoid that change, but it's hard when so many bring it to my attention. You forgot my favorite "any ship can be a submarine .... once".


Bob

 

[Jared0425]

I hear vis in that river is quite low along with the occasional alligator prowling around. USDiver is right, if you can't pay attention to your spg, then use a J-valve or a HUD. When diving in black water I usually have enough vis to read my gauge unless in the muck, but no more than 30ft for 30 minutes which equates for me about 5 ear pops so I know roughly the depth (plus knowing the area) plus a backup 19cu ft pony incase of any emergency.

It's sad to see a diver lose his life over Meg teeth because he was not paying attention to his air (or as far as we know). I also disagree with the notion of breathing your tank down as low as you can as a dive plan whether it be in a 10ft pond or 20ft river. There is a reason why those practices are not accepted any longer.

 

[dmaziuk]

It's sad to see a diver lose his life over Meg teeth because he was not paying attention to his air (or as far as we know). I also disagree with the notion of breathing your tank down as low as you can as a dive plan whether it be in a 10ft pond or 20ft river. There is a reason why those practices are not accepted any longer.

Bearing in mind that there's no reason to believe this in any way relevant to this sad incident, and so entirely off-topic: next time I get a chance to breathe down my tank at SS depth I promise to remember it's a no longer acceptable BIG DEAL and unless NOTHING GOES WRONG I'm GONNA DIE. Eventually.

 

[chris.evans]

In my first post I actually wrote 'que the 'you can drown in 2 inches of water' trolls', but then deleted it; hoping for the best. But seriously, let's not make assumptions and beat our chests to show who is the safest.

As these threads are useful as learning discussions, I will chime in about fossil diving, blackwater, and task loaded dives, or dives where you can easily be distracted by photographing amazing animals, exploring a wreck or cave, etc..

Air Integration
I know it's frowned upon by the 'experienced bad asses' but I will say I will NEVER go back from having an air integrated watch/computer. My transmitter is attached with a very short hp hose in a way that minimizes line traps. I love getting yelled at when I am about to rise too fast trying to get a perfect photo of squid in the water column. Getting yelled at when I am approaching my turn pressure or whatever.. Some say you are putting your life into the hands of a computer, but if the thing ever were to break, I would abort the dive. It's no different than relying on a computer for tables, and I also have an SPG if the transmitter has an issue so I don't have to abort, but I have never had an issue with transmitter connection.

It's much easier to monitor your air when it's right there on your wrist and feeding into your computer. Nevermind the useful stuff like logging SAC and things, warnings as you approach your MOD on enriched air, PPO2, etc.

'20 Feet'
As to exiting a 20 foot dive with an empty tank, in these rivers there is a TON of debris on the bottom, and can be a ton of boats on the surface. There are many logs that have branches sharpened by the current, I exit the water when I am lower than normal, but not quite as low as a Blue Heron dive where it's crystal clear 20 feet with zero boat traffic. I try to leave enough gas that I could wiggle out of my snagged gear, send up a noodle, etc; while under duress and breathing heavily.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I think we are missing the point here. Yes, there was an "out-of-gas" (OOG) or "out-of-air" (OOA) situation here. But according to the officials,

...Even though the response time was less than 10 minutes, it was still too long to save the diver in distress.

"We had a diver in distress in the water. There were actually two people in distress at that point. One was actually trying to help on the other end of the boat. The firefighters that got on scene were able to enlist a bystander to take them to the scene. We were able to get that one diver who was in critical condition on board," said Daniel Byrne, Burton Fire District.

It's unclear how the diver became to be in distress, however, the search and water rescue crews did notice some factors that may have played a role in the dangerous trip.

"They may have been experienced divers, but we're actually having extra high tides at the moment, so that means outgoing and incoming tides. The current is really moving through there. They were not running tag lines between the two, so if one would have gotten into trouble, they wouldn't have been able to notify anybody else," Jennings said...
Diving group may have had safety limitations during expedition

So there was current in addition to the limited visibility. But I have another question, "Where was his buddy?"

Let me give some perspective. Here's a dive log entry of mine from September 15, 1975 when I was working for the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife on subtidal clam bed surveys. We wanted to get some photos of the dredging activities, and I was acting as the photographer (I owned a Nikonos II, and no one else did).

Max depth reached: 37 feet; Average depth: 36 feet; Divers: Tom G. and Limons O.
Location of dive: YB (Yaquina Bay) Area 2 (we had broken down the areas).
Purpose of dive: Subtidal dredging
Work performed: 11 Stations
Water Conditions: Visibility in feet: 10; Current in knots: 0-2; Swell height in feet: ---- ; Comments on diver physiology: --- .
Remarks: Photography Dives -- Ran out of air on last dive. Buddy breathed ~ 5 min -- long enough to get the photos.
Submitted by: John C. Ratliff

My point in bringing this up is that running out of air in and of itself is not an excuse for drowning. Decompression accidents are an entirely different matter, as are overhead environments. However, OOG is simply OOG. If the diver is comfortable in the water, has a buddy around, there is no reason for a death from simply running OOG. We were taught way back that even a completely empty tank had at least one breath left in it as you ascend, so don't take the regulator out of your mouth.

Since that time, I have played around with vintage diving equipment for many, many years now, and own a pretty good collection of regulators and different tanks. There are various gear configurations made to keep people from running OOG. These include J-valves, regulators with restrictor orifices (the Healthways Scubair first stage is a great example of this type of restrictor--the breathing gets hard, and forces you toward the surface to get more air), Sonic regulators (which give off a sound warning when the diver is low on air (Scubapro Mk VII, and Healthways Scubair 300 are examples), SPGs (there is a reason for the painted blue or red area from 600 psig down), and combinations (the UDS-1 is a great example of a combined system, although it never caught on, I could breathe it down to zero on the gauge without feeling any restriction in breathing at all, then trip the 900 psig reserve J-valve). J-valves evolved over the years, and the Scubapro Depth-Compensating Constant Reserve valve was one of the best.

This reserve could have the lever mounted either away or toward the diver (preventing unintentional activation by rocks and stuff underwater), and could be adjusted for either a 350 psig reserve (above ambient pressure) or 600 psig reserve. I used it on a dive a few days ago in high current, and activated it when breathing became hard, which was an around 400 psig (the reserve was set for 600 psig, but this was gauge reading using my Suunto Cobra dive computer). Upon activation, the pressure showing went up to just over 600 psig. I continued underwater for a few minutes more as I neared my exit point in the river (Clackamas River) and still exited with about 175 psig. Interestingly, the printout from my computer did not capture this change.

One other question, which bears asking; are today's regulators too good? By that I mean that the use of totally balanced regulators with both the first stage and second stage balanced gives no warning of OOG situation as an immediate hazard. With the refinement of these regulators, a diver can breath the tank down to zero pressure without a noticeable restriction in breathing. This is great in situations where there is a high physiological demand on the diver, to deliver tremendous amounts of air at very low inhalation effort. But along with that is the intentional loss of any ability to sense impending OOG situations. Is this being currently taught, or discussed at all? I have used the Healthways Scubair on its restrictor orifice setting, and when I felt the restriction at about 22 feet headed toward the surface so that the restriction disappeared as I ascended, and ended up with 600 psig still in the tank.

So, again, my question, "Where was this diver's buddy?"

SeaRat

 

[chris.evans]

So, again, my question, "Where was this diver's buddy?"

I apologize, I should have mentioned this. These dives are solo dives, only on a rare day could you dive with a buddy, there is too much debris to be tethered, and the vis is a few feet to as few inches, and it's as black as a night dive at noon mid-day. You could perhaps buddy dive with powerful lights. Here's a video i shot showing the current and vis on a semi-normal day in the Cooper:

Instagram video by Photos of things. • Jul 20, 2015 at 1:47pm UTC

I apologize, I thought it was clear that these river dives in the carolinas were blackwater.

 

[Steve_C]

I have not dove this site but I have dove for fossils off the coast of NC. Two observations.

1. The captains repeatedly warn us to watch our air. OOA is too frequent at these sites with divers getting tooth fever.

2. Fossils are heavy. They are very dense rock. I can remember coming up with a modest number of teeth and dolphin and whale bones. I was surprised at how heavy it was. In fact I seriously thought about dropping a few whale bones but decided my BCD had enough (barely) lift. Swimming up from depth with a bag of fossils may slow you down appreciably. I would hate to try it OOA and dumping the bag can cost time.

 

[chris.evans]

Hi Steve, I would like to distinguish SC river diving from NC meg ledge diving for people who might not know.

I have yet to do a meg ledge dive, from my understanding, people tie into the base of the anchor and solo dive at 100 feet, IMO this is much more dangerous than a 20 foot low vis solo dive in a river.
- all divers in the water are solo and tied into the anchor like an xmas tree of death in this vid, but I could be wrong. (and I am half joking people)

Yes, people at 100 feet burn through air looking for fossils, I am NSSCDS certified and I still feel that 100 foot fossil diving isn't that safe. I enjoy river diving because there is so much more time to spend on the bottom and I feel comfortable soloing at 20 feet. Same with Blue Heron, on an HP tank I can spend so long taking photos and I don't consider it a risky solo at 20 feet or so.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Okay, that explains a lot. I do a lot of solo diving, but almost never in zero visibility water. I did that one time (solo dive in zero visibility), and it was in a log pond (for a sawmill) where the fellow tending the logs lost his false teeth. I tried to find them, but found so much debries on the bottom that finding the false teeth was impossible. It was only about a fifteen minute dive, and I was tended from above on that dive. Zero visibility solo diving is "hanging it out there" in my opinion.

Saying that, here's my second question:

One other question, which bears asking; are today's regulators too good?

SeaRat