Carabineers that bad?

[Sharkbaithawaii]

i have used the stainless carabeiners for the last year or so and never had a problem. But after i read this thread, i will conceed that what you are describing could happen. So i went out to my garage grabbed them got a little placstic wire shrink and put them on it. So after it clips back into place i slide the shrink up and it acts like a lock. I then tried to open it and it moved alittle but nothing would have gotten in it.

 

[onfloat]

hmm, I suppose I could use the ones that I've dropped...but they are also rather large, the ones I dive with are 1-2"

As for being drug down below MOD, remain calm, try to move up the anchor line while working the clip, either freeing the line or d-ring, worst case, grab my knife and cut my webbing around the d-ring(assuming it's a chain/cable, if it's a rope, well that's why the back side of the knife is serrated); 2" webbing for a harness is still cheaper then a SS double end snap bolt.

I guess it boils down to risk vs. reward. What are you willing to risk for a couple of $$.

 

[Kwbyron]

That's what I was trying to find out... what the risk was, and where it came from. I think safty is important while diving, but I feel it gets a little out of hand at times. I don't have 2 1st stages in case on fails, I don't carry a spare mask, 2 back up flash lights, a pony bottle, Safety sausage, finger spool... I'm AO/W, I have no problem aborting a dive if something goes wrong/ breaks, I always have a budy and we stay close; if he wants to go look at a fish, I'll go with him.

 

[onfloat]

Here's the deal. (Disclaimer: I'm a DIR inclined diver) As such I'm strongly against them because they do represent a risk that I'm not willing to take. As a basic open water diver, they may never cause a problem. If you ever plan on diving a wreck that risk increases. A diver on the Andrea Doria (granted it's an extreme dive) died because his clips became tangled. If you read "The Last Dive" it goes in to it. I only was asking questions to make you think and consider. When it comes down to it your going to do what your going to do.

EDIT: You say you can't open a snap-bolt with gloves, that's a practice thing. Go with a little larger snap-bolt.

 

[Ice Mike]

"Why would you want to attach something like that for diving?"

I was just wondering what the deep divers use to attach the third and sometimes fourth bottle?

 

[onfloat]

"Why would you want to attach something like that for diving?"

I was just wondering what the deep divers use to attach the third and sometimes fourth bottle?

Large snap-bolts.

 

[AlexMDiver]

hmm, I suppose I could use the ones that I've dropped...but they are also rather large, the ones I dive with are 1-2"

As for being drug down below MOD, remain calm, try to move up the anchor line while working the clip, either freeing the line or d-ring, worst case, grab my knife and cut my webbing around the d-ring(assuming it's a chain/cable, if it's a rope, well that's why the back side of the knife is serrated); 2" webbing for a harness is still cheaper then a SS double end snap bolt.

It seems to me that this discussion really involves two questions now.
1st is: Are carabiner clips dangerous in general and should they be avoided by divers in general.
2nd is: Is the carabiner attached to YOUR gear dangerous to YOU.

The correct answer to Q1 is: Yes, carabiners are bad news underwater. They can clip things that you do not want and when you do not notice. Depending on where you dive (and this varies significantly for each diver) you can hook fishing lines, ropes, electrical cables in wrecks etc. Cutting a rope with the serrated knife edge sounds charming and like and adventure, but underwater in a tricky environment at great depth, this can be the difference between life and death. It has happened alot to some extremely experienced divers, that still had suicide clips attached to their gear and died because of this (read up in Deep Decent and other Andrea Doria books for more on this). Bolt snaps are the safe alternative. A little practice with them, and they are just as simple to use as carabiners.

To answer Q2 and your hypothetical scenario. You may dive another 500 dives w/o problems and you may never get close to anything that can catch the clip. But if you do I am not sure cutting the webbing in a high stress plunge will work out, the chance that you lose your knife is high, then what. Are you really suggesting that you'd rather save 4 bucks and are prepared to cut your harness? We are not talking about large sums of money here. And this is not going to work for most divers, although you may be calm enough. Most divers will panic and worse can happen. So the answer really for others is the one above.

A.

 

[Ice Mike]

If I end up buying my own gear............snapbolts are cheap compared to the rest. So I am convinced. But even if they were expensive I would still go for them.

A bit like the brakes on your car. I keep them in good order just as my tyres.
The one time I will really need them, will make all the money spend worth it.

(I have been hit by another car who didn't brake in time, it was 10 years ago and I still need to watch out how I sit in chairs, otherwise I will get back pains again.)

I was just interested in the subject.

 

[grazie42]

Questions are good and there are only stupid answers, not questions...

Carabiners are great for climbing but not so great for diving. Carabiners (and suicide clips) have a tendency to clip things that you don´t want clipped. They are a big no-no for technical diving.

As an ow-diver (or equiv.) you can either decide that if all those more experienced (likely) and more trained divers feel they are dangerous then I don´t want to put myself in a situation that those divers avoid, however unlikely, to save a few $. Or you decide that you´re a good ow-diver and unlike those scaredy-cat techdivers, not afraid to get caught on something because you have your trusty diveknife, a buddy and all the time in the world to solve whatever trouble you get into...

The choice is entirely up to you...

 

[TSandM]

The bolt snaps are expensive and it does add up when you buy a number of them. You can use brass ones, which are much cheaper . . . the tech preference for SS is because the brass ones can develop sharp edges. If you are not diving a whole lot, or don't care if you get holes in your gloves or your fingers occasionally, the brass ones save you money.

Carabiners CAN clip into things you don't intend. I don't know about you, but I've occasionally gotten much closer to things I didn't want to get attached to than I intended -- including, for example, buoy chains (got tangled in one on descent on one dive). Getting hooked to stuff is at best a PITA. If you are not diving around heavy weights, if your buddy is always attentive and there, if you have cutting instruments, if you are not given to anxiety or frustration if you're caught and you're having trouble getting loose, then you might be just fine with carabiners. My husband uses them, because I can't convince him not to.

It's risk assessment. The likelihood of getting into trouble in shallow dives in our area because you have a carabiner snapped to the front of your BC are probably pretty low. I don't want to deal with the issue, so I use bolt snaps (which are pretty easy to learn to manipulate, even with thick gloves, given a little practice). Since the worst thing that can happen to a diver is to be caught somewhere underwater and not be able to get loose, I'd just as soon avoid ANY increase in that risk, even if it costs me a few more dollars up front.

But it's your decision. Nobody is going to shoot you for using carabiners.