C-cards or log books?

[nielsent]

So while reading and posting to another forum, something came into my brain that I thought I would pose to our fine little board.

Background: When I did my AOW, my instructor forgot to give me a temporary card, and did not get around to processing my application for 2 months (completely different story). Which left me without c-card proof of my accomplishment. At some point while this was occurring, I wanted to to an adventure night dive, and went to a shop to ask about it. They told me that that I would need to provide proof of being at least an adventure diver, I explained my problem and the instructor said that it would be no problem, all i had to do was show him my log book where i completed the dives and that they were signed off by the instructor.

Based on the previous situation, you would think that there is no need for c-cards if one has a properly looked after log book. To me this means that c-cards might not exactly be necessary. However, I can also see how having a c-card would provide proof of accomplishment in the event that someone does not keep up a log book, or if the log book is lost or damaged somehow.

So what do people think? could a log book be a c-card? Do we need c-cards? Should we have a "Prove it or shut up?" system that requires check out dives to evaluate someone's skill level? How about having their skill levels permanently Tattooed onto the diver?

Thanks in advance all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

First off, not every agency requires your log book to be signed by an instructor or dive buddy. In fact, log books are for the most part completely voluntary. Many people don't even bother logging dives.

Furthermore, whether or not a dive op accepts a log book as proof of training is completely up to the op ... and in my experience, most don't.

Keep in mind that diving is an unregulated activity ... policies are not universal. Most are implemented by the dive op or LDS, and are more based on perceived liability concerns than on agency standards or recommendations.

Check-out dives are a great idea if they are practical and conducted in a sensible manner. Most that I've had to do were a joke ... like in Roatan where the "check out" involves squatting down on your knees, clearing your mask, and doing a reg recovery.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

So what do people think? could a log book be a c-card? Do we need c-cards? Should we have a "Prove it or shut up?" system that requires check out dives to evaluate someone's skill level?

"Don't call him a cowboy until you've seen him ride..."

Ultimately, at basic recreational levels neither c-cards nor log books meaning anything in and of themselves.

A c-card merely says "at some point in time in the past, someone said you could do something, with some level of facility."

A log book might merely say "I had a pen and some free time."

On the other hand, if someone shows you a GUE Full-Cave card and a log-book with 10,000 dives including photos of themselves diving the Marianas Trench...

 

[parzdiver]

Log books are too easy to fake. I have a lot of entries that are signed by instructors that I could add specific comments to make them look like training dives for certs.

C-cards wouldn't be too difficult to fake, but much tougher than a log book. The main benefit of the c-card over a log book is that you can carry it in your wallet. When you get into the multi-hundred dive range, do you want to be carrying the log book pages that probe your AOW? It just isn't practical.

There are some dives, mostly advanced, technical dives, that certain boats won't take you on unless you have a personal reference from someone they know and trust. There have recently been some night dives on the deep wrecks of Key Largo that you must be DM level or above and have a personal invitation.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Log books are too easy to fake. I have a lot of entries that are signed by instructors that I could add specific comments to make them look like training dives for certs.

C-cards wouldn't be too difficult to fake, but much tougher than a log book. The main benefit of the c-card over a log book is that you can carry it in your wallet. When you get into the multi-hundred dive range, do you want to be carrying the log book pages that probe your AOW? It just isn't practical.

Why would anyone want to fake a log book or a c-card? I mean ... who are they kidding? That's like the scuba equivalent of masturbation ... you're only playing with yourself ...

There are some dives, mostly advanced, technical dives, that certain boats won't take you on unless you have a personal reference from someone they know and trust. There have recently been some night dives on the deep wrecks of Key Largo that you must be DM level or above and have a personal invitation.

I can understand the personal invitation bit ... we have some charters like that here, too. But requiring a DM-level or above? I've met some DM's I wouldn't trust in a swimming pool ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

There have recently been some night dives on the deep wrecks of Key Largo that you must be DM level or above and have a personal invitation.

You can be a DM without ever having done more than 60 dives to 30ft in a quarry where you didn't do much more than kneel on a platform for 20min.

 

[parzdiver]

Why would anyone want to fake a log book or a c-card? I mean ... who are they kidding? That's like the scuba equivalent of masturbation ... you're only playing with yourself ...

The c-card is going a bit crazy, but the faked log book scenario probably happens. People trying to "prove" they've done more than they actually have. I know someone who faked a couple entries in their logbook because they were paranoid about the dive shop checking when they did their last dive and making them do a refresher (not to get in a debate about refreshers).

I'm not saying most people would, but sticking to the premise of this thread, without c-cards, it would be too easy for anyone to fake a log book to indicate their training and experience is greater than reality.

I can understand the personal invitation bit ... we have some charters like that here, too. But requiring a DM-level or above? I've met some DM's I wouldn't trust in a swimming pool ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You can be a DM without ever having done more than 60 dives to 30ft in a quarry where you didn't do much more than kneel on a platform for 20min.

That is why there is the personal invitation. I don't run those dives, I don't even qualify for those dives, but that is what I've heard. I also heard the Speigel Grove is an awesome night dive!

 

[vjanelle]

Why would anyone want to fake a log book or a c-card? I mean ... who are they kidding? That's like the scuba equivalent of masturbation ... you're only playing with yourself ...

So that nosy charters and DMs stay out of things that're not their business. If they want to evaluate my skills/comfort in the water, they can get in it with me.

 

[Walter]

You can be a DM without ever having done more than 60 dives to 30ft in a quarry where you didn't do much more than kneel on a platform for 20min.

I think you need at least 1 dive to 60 feet during the AOW class.

 

[nielsent]

Upon retrospect, I can see how the log book wouldn't be the best idea. I actually met someone that would split his dives into two dives if they were longer then 30 minutes. Made it look like he had more dives than he actually had.