Buying Online

[Firefishvideo]

@ScoobaSam: Yeah, you started that thread saying that you were studying under a "master" reg repair tech and that you were curious how long it should take a repair tech to overhaul a reg typically.

Just to clarify, you don't work as a DM or instructor or unpaid helper for the LDS in question, right?

I will repeat two things from my earlier post.
1: the shop I buy from : MBT Dive & Surf Pensacola, Florida (850) 455-7702 (real shop, not an internet seller) can usually match internet prices on lines that they carry. ....so that blows the +$200 argument out of the water.


You would have to see if they carry the brand that you want, I know they carry ATOMIC, MARES, and others....I even saw one of those HOG regs there, although I only buy Atomic M-1's

2: It takes a qualified tech about 1.5 to 2 hours to rebuild a first stage, 2 seconds, test and adjust the complete setup.

-Just a question , maybe by a show of hands, how many of you DIY'ers have the required gear and knowledge to oxygen clean your regs (ultrasonic cleaner), install oxygen safe o-rings, and finally test the intermediate pressures, and adjust the correct second stage pressures for the surface and dive modes? Keeping track of upgrades, recalls, spare parts on hand, ect.
.....I think this is one of those, the more you know ....the less you think you know things......because , at least for me I'm damn glad someone else can keep track of all this stuff year round, while I only rebuild once a year(.. and forget most of what I learned in between.)
- Just for the record, the atomic-M1's have a 2 year service period, but I rebuild them every year anyway, because when my a@$ is on the line at 300+ feet I like the peace of mind that clean, well performing regs give me, but I if never dove past 100ft I probably wouldn't be as critical of my gear.
PS: RE-READ #1 - there is no +$200!

 

[pjones]

An alternative approach is to save the $$$ up front (that's $200 in the bank) and delay servicing to a longer interval. Even with a 2 year interval, the customer would pay the $100 labor charge and $70 for parts and spend less per year than the guy who paid full price. throw in a $30 off year inspection (if the diver is unable to do that simple inspection on their own) and they break even on an annual cost, but still save the $200 up front. I expect my regulators (and most others) to go at least 2 years between servicing and often will go 3 to 5 years. You can run those numbers if you would like.

(awap: Sorry to use you as the example but it was just too convenient to pass up)

I couldn't help but notice a contradiction in what is commonly preached on this board vs. what is being argued in this thread. Typically when people are buying gear and have questions the common reply is something along the lines of "it is a life support system so don't cheep out on it because your life is on the line" but from what I am getting on this post is that really it's ok to push the limits in order to save a few bucks, or in other words, save $200 at the beginning and ignore the manufactures recommended service interval then sell the reg to someone else before it fails, only to repeat... This technique just doesn't sit right with me personally. I understand that the reg can be serviced (and should be serviced) when the new owner of the extended use regulator receives it and after that service it should be as good as new but why would you push the limits just to save a few bucks. Specially when considered how little it costs when broken down to a per dive basis.

FWIW, It doesn't appear to me that the OP had any intention of rebuilding their own reg or skipping service intervals...

 

[pjones]

I can get a reg online for about $500 or in a dive shop for about $700. Online means no warranty and I have to pay the extra 30 dollars every year for the service kit instead of ScubaPro providing it. What else does the warranty cover beside service kits? It just doesn’t seem worth it to spend an extra 200 dollars for free service kits for life.

PS: RE-READ #1 - there is no +$200!

Well the way I read it this thing is all about the $200. There is the mathematical statement $700 - $500 = $200 or the straight out in the open statement explaining their concern for paying an additional $200 when all they see getting are free service kits in addition...

Maybe I'm misreading it?

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

(awap: Sorry to use you as the example but it was just too convenient to pass up)

I couldn't help but notice a contradiction in what is commonly preached on this board vs. what is being argued in this thread. Typically when people are buying gear and have questions the common reply is something along the lines of "it is a life support system so don't cheep out on it because your life is on the line"but from what I am getting on this post is that really it's ok to push the limits in order to save a few bucks, or in other words, save $200 at the beginning and ignore the manufactures recommended service interval then sell the reg to someone else before it fails, only to repeat... This technique just doesn't sit right with me personally. I understand that the reg can be serviced (and should be serviced) when the new owner of the extended use regulator receives it and after that service it should be as good as new but why would you push the limits just to save a few bucks. Specially when considered how little it costs when broken down to a per dive basis.

FWIW, It doesn't appear to me that the OP had any intention of rebuilding their own reg or skipping service intervals...

The section I've highlighted in red is often repeated, and originates in the advertising departments of many manufacturers. Every regulator sold by every major manufacturer for recreational use is safe, reliable, and will not kill you just because you spent $400 versus $1,500. It is to their advantage to sow subtle (or not so subtle) seeds of "fear" so that you'll spend more.... nothing wrong with that, just understand that you are doing it because you enjoy the slight performance increase a high end reg has, not because it is any "safer".

The section I've highlighted in blue is taking the many DIY folks statements out of context, or with limited understanding of what we are trying to explain in many different threads.

Time and again, what the folks who repair their own regs say often boils down to:

"INSPECT AND TEST OFTEN, AND SERVICE WHEN NEEDED."

Many folks often think we are advocating not servicing regs, when actually, what is being proposed is that you learn how to inspect and test your own equipment (not just limited to regs, but it seems that is what is most often discussed).

Buy an IP gauge, read the sticky thread at the top of the regulator forum, do some reading, maybe buy a couple regulator repair books.....

If you do this, you may end up servicing your reg sooner than one year intervals because you noticed a slight performance drop or the IP beginning to "creep", or at longer than one year intervals.... In either case you'll have learned to detect developing problems and get them handled before the reg ever lets you down.

Whether you decide to learn to do the repair work yourself is an entirely different issue (although it is easy, not everyone wants to or has the mechanical ability)...

I really feel all divers should learn just a little more about their gear and how it functions, and not blindly depend on annual service to "keep them safe". Once you take the mystery out of regulator function and repair, a whole lot of the "fear factor" vanishes.

Best wishes.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

.....-Just a question , maybe by a show of hands, how many of you DIY'ers have the required gear and knowledge to oxygen clean your regs (ultrasonic cleaner), install oxygen safe o-rings, and finally test the intermediate pressures, and adjust the correct second stage pressures for the surface and dive modes? Keeping track of upgrades, recalls, spare parts on hand, ect.
.....I think this is one of those, the more you know ....the less you think you know things......because , at least for me I'm damn glad someone else can keep track of all this stuff year round, while I only rebuild once a year(.. and forget most of what I learned in between.)

:admingreet: I'll bite

Short answer: Yes! Everything you've mentioned is, well, not difficult stuff. It still falls under the "part-swapper" label, and does not require any special "skill". What requires skill is diagnosing and fixing a poorly performing regulator that does not respond to a simple clean, lube and annual service.

Long answer: This may sound like a "rant", and if so I apologize in advance, that is not how it is meant:

1.) Oxygen clean: Yes. I clean my reg to oxygen safe standards, but.... Wait.... I never use O2 above 40% (in fact, I'm strictly a EAN21 guy ) ... Ok, so oxygen cleaning is not necessary in my case. Sigh. So what I'm currently doing is simply overkill... But my regs are squeaky clean, just like I likes 'em

2.) Intermediate pressure:... yes, I have two gauges (IP gauges). They are used to set / check IP in first stage before and after service, and frequently thereafter.

3.) Magnahelic gauge to test "cracking pressure" in 2nd stage? Yes, but doing the "water test" will give an acceptable result in most cases, as will a manometer; and in most cases good technique when tuning the 2nd stage (tuned as finely as possible) negates the need for a Magnahelic except as an academic exercise, or to avoid tuning too close to the "edge"; this relates to case geometry fault, and how it may ultimately determine what the lowest "stable" cracking pressure might be for your 2nd stage. Many "techs" will just stare blankly at you if you ask about it. Many of the DIY guys on this board can explain it fairly well.... or at least we argue about it and other stuff a lot

Oh, and while I'm on the topic: A few "techs" also get than a little "muddled" regarding 1st and 2nd stage balancing and depth compensation, performance, and performance at depth.... Sorry, a pet peeve, right up there with "It's Life Support!!"

Well, I'm not really being fair, because I get "muddled" about some of these concepts too But I'm not a "tech", just a DIY guy :blinking:

4.) "Setting correct 2nd stage pressures for surface and dive modes"? Huh? You've lost me. I think I'm probably misunderstanding you. You do set the IP at the first stage, then adjust (tune) the 2nd stage based on the 1st stage IP. What procedure used to "tune" the 2nd stage depends on the basic design of the 2nd stage:

Classic unbalanced downstreams may be adjustable by setting orifice depth, lever height, and your tech can explain how tuning them becomes a balancing act between interacting forces....

Balanced barrel poppet 2nds may just have a single adjustment (the orifice depth, which in turn affects lever height), but there may also be a second spring load adjustment in some models....

5.) Upgrades & recalls.... yes, I watch for them. When they come out, I install them.... For most regs, critical upgrades and recalls are less frequent than you'd think, except for the very newest models.... If you buy regulators that have been on the market for many years without major design changes you'll see precious few upgrades or recalls, but yes they can occur, so you do need to watch for them.

If you are going to work on your own regs, you do need to learn how. Many of the DIY guys are, well, true regulator geeks.... we become compulsive with some stuff many techs never bother with...

My geeky confession: I use a jewelers loupe to closely inspect every sealing surface and every threaded surface on every regulator I work on. This inspection takes a lot of time and is probably overkill, and takes longer than many techs spend rebuilding a 1st and 2nd stage But I think it is important, so I do it. Any soft parts that don't get changed also get the loupe "look over".

So, sorry if I ranted again, I guess asking if most DIY guys are capable fairly routine regulator repair stuff is akin to asking Julia Childs if she can scramble an egg...

Best wishes.

 

[knowone]

Or if Meryl Streep can do an Aussie Accent.
:luxhello:Fifteen inch adjustable, for Nut's n regs n valves n small locomotives. :dropmouth:

 

[Zung]

That's getting way off topic, but yes, me too:

1. I use an ultrasonic cleaner for convenience: I'm also a true believer in 100% pure natural air.
2. I have 3 IP gauges to cross-check their accuracy, even though it's not extremely relevant.
3. I use a manometer to check the cracking pressure.
4. All of my "active" regs are adjustable, no pre-dive/dive switch if that's what you mean.
5. I install "upgrades" if they're relevant and when they become available, even though it's pretty uncommon.
6. I keep several maintenance kits on hand, plus a drawer full of parts, even though that's also irrelevant because the manitenance cycle is pretty accurately predictable and leaves plenty of time for ordering parts.

Edit:
Oh yes, I also use 2 calibrated torque wrenches to tighten things up.

 

[herman]

Rant on brother Leadturn, that is pretty much my case as well. I never botherered with the mags, don't see the need considering manometers are used to calibrate them, figure why not just stick with the source. My regs do see a fair amount of 32% but like you, I don't have a need to O2 clean even so, it' not rocket science or takes a lot of gear, just a lot of cleaner. I am pretty sure I can learn to wash regs and tanks if I need to.

We have strayed off topic a lot but IMO it boils down to this. IF you don't or can't DIY or at least have the skills and knowledge to check your own regs then spend the $200 at the LDS and build a good relationship with a good shop. On the other hand, if you can/will do DIY or self checks, same the $200 and the yearly service.

 

[Firefishvideo]

:admingreet: I'll bite

Short answer: Yes! Everything you've mentioned is, well, not difficult stuff. It still falls under the "part-swapper" label, and does not require any special "skill". What requires skill is diagnosing and fixing a poorly performing regulator that does not respond to a simple clean, lube and annual service.

Long answer: This may sound like a "rant", and if so I apologize in advance, that is not how it is meant:

1.) Oxygen clean: Yes. I clean my reg to oxygen safe standards, but.... Wait.... I never use O2 above 40% (in fact, I'm strictly a EAN21 guy ) ... Ok, so oxygen cleaning is not necessary in my case. Sigh. So what I'm currently doing is simply overkill... But my regs are squeaky clean, just like I likes 'em

2.) Intermediate pressure:... yes, I have two gauges (IP gauges). They are used to set / check IP in first stage before and after service, and frequently thereafter.

3.) Magnahelic gauge to test "cracking pressure" in 2nd stage? Yes, but doing the "water test" will give an acceptable result in most cases, as will a manometer; and in most cases good technique when tuning the 2nd stage (tuned as finely as possible) negates the need for a Magnahelic except as an academic exercise, or to avoid tuning too close to the "edge"; this relates to case geometry fault, and how it may ultimately determine what the lowest "stable" cracking pressure might be for your 2nd stage. Many "techs" will just stare blankly at you if you ask about it. Many of the DIY guys on this board can explain it fairly well.... or at least we argue about it and other stuff a lot

Oh, and while I'm on the topic: A few "techs" also get than a little "muddled" regarding 1st and 2nd stage balancing and depth compensation, performance, and performance at depth.... Sorry, a pet peeve, right up there with "It's Life Support!!"

Well, I'm not really being fair, because I get "muddled" about some of these concepts too But I'm not a "tech", just a DIY guy :blinking:

4.) "Setting correct 2nd stage pressures for surface and dive modes"? Huh? You've lost me. I think I'm probably misunderstanding you. You do set the IP at the first stage, then adjust (tune) the 2nd stage based on the 1st stage IP. What procedure used to "tune" the 2nd stage depends on the basic design of the 2nd stage:

Classic unbalanced downstreams may be adjustable by setting orifice depth, lever height, and your tech can explain how tuning them becomes a balancing act between interacting forces....

Balanced barrel poppet 2nds may just have a single adjustment (the orifice depth, which in turn affects lever height), but there may also be a second spring load adjustment in some models....

5.) Upgrades & recalls.... yes, I watch for them. When they come out, I install them.... For most regs, critical upgrades and recalls are less frequent than you'd think, except for the very newest models.... If you buy regulators that have been on the market for many years without major design changes you'll see precious few upgrades or recalls, but yes they can occur, so you do need to watch for them.

If you are going to work on your own regs, you do need to learn how. Many of the DIY guys are, well, true regulator geeks.... we become compulsive with some stuff many techs never bother with...

My geeky confession: I use a jewelers loupe to closely inspect every sealing surface and every threaded surface on every regulator I work on. This inspection takes a lot of time and is probably overkill, and takes longer than many techs spend rebuilding a 1st and 2nd stage But I think it is important, so I do it. Any soft parts that don't get changed also get the loupe "look over".

So, sorry if I ranted again, I guess asking if most DIY guys are capable fairly routine regulator repair stuff is akin to asking Julia Childs if she can scramble an egg...

Best wishes.

WOW! Thanks for posting all of that, so the newbies can see what is involved. I think because you have been doing this quite a while, and obviously know what you are doing....you don't remember how daunting and dangerous learning all of that info on your own can be.
As for the dive/surface, I think you covered it, and it does depend on the reg, but many regs are adjustable for delivery at surface and depth, and you want to make sure the valve is adjusted so that both settings are acceptable.
I am still confused as to which part of this equipment you don't consider to be life support. But you are right in that if you only breath air you probably don't need to be oxygen clean.
...Any way I'm done with this since everyone is ignoring the fact that if you go to a good shop or or at least call MBT Dive & Surf Pensacola, Florida (850) 455-7702 you won't have to pay +$200 in the first place and will still get good service.
The Manufacturers of GOOD regs, set the LOWEST price that can be charged for the reg, and if you are getting it cheaper than that , it is not from an authorized dealer, which means ...NO WARRANTY, NO idea where this item has been or what has happened to it, or if it will even work when you get it.....so I hope you don't get the shaft , but you might and there may be no recourse.
....of course some greedy shops WILL jack the price WAY up over the MFG's minimum, b.....OH NEVER MIND>>>>>I'M JUST WASTING MY BREATH.

 

[redacted]

...Any way I'm done with this since everyone is ignoring the fact that if you go to a good shop or or at least call MBT Dive & Surf Pensacola, Florida (850) 455-7702 you won't have to pay +$200 in the first place and will still get good service.
:

Their web site does not suggest that they do sales other than dive trips online. Is that not the case? I do not understand why a great shop with competitive pricing would not do business online.

BTW, there was really nothing dangerous about learning DIY; and the only thing that came close to daunting was trying to find a reliable parts supply.