Buying Gear at your LDS VS internet!!!

[Web Monkey]

Bottom line, can you name a single industry or product that hasn't ultimately benefited from competition? get.

• Service Stations (the kind that check your oil and clean your windshield)
• Local Appliance Stores
• Local Hardware Stores
• Local Drug Stores
• US Consumer Electronics Manufacturers
• Local Grocery Stores

 

[yknot]

• Service Stations (the kind that check your oil and clean your windshield)
• Local Appliance Stores
• Local Hardware Stores
• Local Drug Stores
• US Consumer Electronics Manufacturers
• Local Grocery Stores

1) There are still full service gas stations in my area. Pull up to that island and the gas is at least 20 cents a gallon more than self serve.
2) I have at least two thriving local appliance stores. When they are cometitive on an item I have used them. What are they offering that I can't get at the national box store?
3) The local hardware store is one of my favorite comparisons for scuba gear and what it takes to compete. I can buy a single bolt and someone is always available to help me find what I need. They are completely competative with the national chains and have always given me excellent customer service regardless of the potential size of my purchase. If there were large national chains that discounted scuba gear, the surviving mom and pop stores would function alot like my local hardware store.
4) Just like the hardware store, I've got some small local drugstores. Again, what do they offer that I can't get at a discount, except maybe having to wait for a specific drug to be ordered because, unlike Walgreens, they don't normally stock it.
5) Like so many industries, this has occured because Americans will buy anything from anybody if they perceive some value. I can also buy my consumer electronics at a discount store and still receive a factory warranty. While the loss of jobs is a shame, from a consumer's standpoint, the competiton in consumer electronics has been a huge benefit. As an aside to all of this, I have an Aqualung regulator which was made in France. The French economy isn't suffering because of practices we allow. They sole a product. The loss to my local economy is that my LDS chose not to make anything on the transaction by failing to be competitive.
6) Is the produce at your corner fruit market somehow substandard or overpriced because of the new, well-lit, clean and competitively priced regional chain store?

My complaints aren't really with the LDS's. They have gotten lazy and have failed to remain competitve because they believe that they are in control of an exclusive and controlled market. The internet is proving this wrong. Do you remember the average quality of a US made automobile in the 70's, before the Japanese started importing high quality vehicles? Do you think that the US manufacturers would have made improvements without this competiton? How long would companies like LeisurePro stay in business if you could buy the same product at the same discounted price at your LDS?

 

[cra2]

One of things I see when it comes to equipment in the OW course descriptions is "fit and comfort". Unless you try the equipment on at your LDS ... how will you know if it is right for you?

as far as I know - the LDS won't let you take a brand-new (OR used) Zeagle Ranger out on a dive to see how it fits & functions in saltwater with a tank on your back.

So, like you said - you either rent gear, try your buddie's, join a local dive club, or read reviews. Wearing one on land, in the shop, didn't prepare me AT ALL for how my mask fit in the water.

"I hear you about some LDS not really caring or being interested in putting any time in helping you out a little in either service or price."

The LDS around here is GREAT about giving you all the time you need to decide... as long as you decide to buy the best BC package in the store. Regardless of who you are, what kind of diving you do, or what your budget is, every salesman in there tells you that package is the one for YOU. Even though more than half of them have never tried it themselves.

And if you ask about another package, they'll ask, "when it comes to putting your LIFE on the line, do you REALLY wanna look for a 'bargain"?

 

[Aquawookie]

You are exactly right that LDS's are there to serve their customer. Unfortunatly, many forget this basic fact of retailing and customer service. I've heard them actually complain about customers that come in and look and have the nerve to TOUCH the merchandise or ASK A QUESTION without buying anything.

Yes you are correct, and I have seen this happen myself. But have you considered what it is like from the other side of the table.

If you spend 3 or 4 hours educating a customer about products, their advantages and disadvantages. Help that person try out different BCD's, regulators and computers. Spend most of your working day with a customer and then have that person walk out saying "Thanks, that was great. I now know exactly what I want, but I'm going to order everything online from the super mega store in Twiddle", would you feel a tad abused??

And before you say, that is what the staff are there for, let me point out that the staff are there to make money for the shop. Customer education is a by product of that requirement, not its principal function.

I have had this happen to me many times and I have seen it happen to others. I still give every customer as much attention as I can. But it is still a waste of the staff's time.

And if, in the future, that same customer walks into the shop and asks the LDS staff more questions about another product the customer is interested in, how do you think the staff will react?

Bottom line. Buy something, anything!! Even if its some spare O rings. If nothing else it's polite.

Fixed pricing as practiced by some scuba manufacturers, along with their current warranty requirements are illegal. These practices violate federal laws enacted to protect consumers. At some point in the near future, these practices will be challanged legally. LDS's have the opportunity now to discount a product and compete dollar for dollar with the internet. Some do and some don't but those that don't are doing it by choice.

Now who's providing partial information. When exactly do you think the Justice Dept will be bringing this class action lawsuit? And in the mean time what will your LDS do if their supplier yanks their account for failing to follow the recommended pricing. This is a very small industry, everyone knows everyone else. What do you think would happen then?

Where are you getting your statistics for the state of the dive industry? The only sources I could imagine keeping track of these numbers would be an industry insiders group, like DEMA.

Correct. And there are other sources of information if you know where to look. And yes I have access to this kind of information as a dive professional. So your point is?

Obviously, LDS's aren't going to be able to track internet sales. Also, manufacturers who allow for online sales and would vend to a company like LP aren't likely to brag about those numbers to their LDS customers.

Again that's the point. The manufacturers are supposed to sell through their dealers. That's the agreement. But we have lots of "leakage" to non authorised sellers who under cut the LDS. It may be "Better" for the consumer, but if you want a level playing field then either the online sellers need to raise their prices, or the LDS need to be authorised to compete at market value. Which they are not ALLOWED to do because of their dealer agreement.

We in the US are also in somewhat of an economic decline, not only scuba but all recreational spending. What link can you draw between a decline in new divers and the internet?

Fewer new divers means a decline in equipment sales and a reduction in the number of staff needed to service those sales. (Instructors, sales staff, maintenance techs ect.)
Shrinking markets mean fewer customers, who tend to become more price conscious as prices drop in an effort to retain/attract customers. This in term leads to price and not added value driving purchasing decisions. As stated before the LDS is a value added operation. And the LDS are, for the most part, prevented from competing on a pure price basis.

This means the LDS is operating at a competative disadvantage when compared to an online seller. And that will lead to the collapse of the LDS unless something changes.

That means the customer can not locally get expert advice, take courses, ask to see products or get fills.

The question now becomes is the customer better, or worse off, at this point?

Do you have a list of manufacturers who have gone out of business or is this just an unsupported statement you are trying to portray as factual? Businesses of all sorts fail everyday. 99.99% of the time it is the business owner's fault.

Yes I know of several closures in the dive industry. One of which was the LDS I worked at. The reason we closed was the lack of new divers which was our bread and butter business.

Bottom line, can you name a single industry or product that hasn't ultimately benefited from competition?

Nope! Not a one! But has the consumer benefited from that same competition? I can think of lots of times a better product was buried because of market forces. The winner is not always the better product/process/person. The winner is just the winner.

If we keep doing what we always do we'll keep getting what we always get.

Yep, and if we let market forces decide that might is right, we'll get what the market wants. And that is not necessairly what we need.

As a last point I have to agree that there are some TERRIBLE LDS's out there. But don't just write all the LDS off as the same. Find one you like and create a relationship with the staff there and you will not be disapointed with the results. But if you are disapointed, then find another LDS.

We as divers need the LDS. But the LDS needs us.

Dive often, dive safe.
Paul

 

[TheRedHead]

I'm a newbie to diving and I have not frequented many dive shops, but both of my local dive shops only carry 1 brand of each item; it's almost as if they have an exclusive agreement with one manufacturer and they do not carry anything else. I recently visited Key Largo and was in a dive shop which as was HUGE and carried many brands. I bought a pair of fins and a dive skin there after trying on many different brands.

The local LDS where I attend class sells only Xcel wetsuits and the woman's Xcel is my size (12) is too short from the neck to the crotch. A Henderson wetsuit in the same size is just right. I know this because I bought a microprene suit from the shop in Florida and wanted to buy a 3 mm from a local dive shop, but could not find one. I would be happy to buy more things from my LDS if they had more than one brand. Without the internet, I would either have to travel out of town to buy a wetsuit that fit or settle for a wedgie (or a man's suit).

I think the LDS who limits itself to one manufacturer is losing sales. I would have paid more for my Henderson wetsuit from my dive shop if I could have purchased it there because I want to support my LDS. But I can't buy equipment that I don't like and that doesn't fit simply to support my dive shop. In some cases, people are shopping the internet for selection more so than price.

 

[Tampabay]

Welcome to the board.... You are right ... Most LDS only carrying certain brands due to Manufacturer agreement.. You will also find others that carry a different brand... This allows them to stay in business without taking business from another LDS... All I'm saying is to compare prices and then choose... but give the LDS chance to match the price or come close....service is a big deal for me....but it may not be for others...



Rey

 

[yknot]

Yes you are correct, and I have seen this happen myself. But have you considered what it is like from the other side of the table.

If you spend 3 or 4 hours educating a customer about products, their advantages and disadvantages. Help that person try out different BCD's, regulators and computers. Spend most of your working day with a customer and then have that person walk out saying "Thanks, that was great. I now know exactly what I want, but I'm going to order everything online from the super mega store in Twiddle", would you feel a tad abused??

And before you say, that is what the staff are there for, let me point out that the staff are there to make money for the shop. Customer education is a by product of that requirement, not its principal function.

I have had this happen to me many times and I have seen it happen to others. I still give every customer as much attention as I can. But it is still a waste of the staff's time.

And if, in the future, that same customer walks into the shop and asks the LDS staff more questions about another product the customer is interested in, how do you think the staff will react?

Bottom line. Buy something, anything!! Even if its some spare O rings. If nothing else it's polite.



Now who's providing partial information. When exactly do you think the Justice Dept will be bringing this class action lawsuit? And in the mean time what will your LDS do if their supplier yanks their account for failing to follow the recommended pricing. This is a very small industry, everyone knows everyone else. What do you think would happen then?



Correct. And there are other sources of information if you know where to look. And yes I have access to this kind of information as a dive professional. So your point is?



Again that's the point. The manufacturers are supposed to sell through their dealers. That's the agreement. But we have lots of "leakage" to non authorised sellers who under cut the LDS. It may be "Better" for the consumer, but if you want a level playing field then either the online sellers need to raise their prices, or the LDS need to be authorised to compete at market value. Which they are not ALLOWED to do because of their dealer agreement.



Fewer new divers means a decline in equipment sales and a reduction in the number of staff needed to service those sales. (Instructors, sales staff, maintenance techs ect.)
Shrinking markets mean fewer customers, who tend to become more price conscious as prices drop in an effort to retain/attract customers. This in term leads to price and not added value driving purchasing decisions. As stated before the LDS is a value added operation. And the LDS are, for the most part, prevented from competing on a pure price basis.

This means the LDS is operating at a competative disadvantage when compared to an online seller. And that will lead to the collapse of the LDS unless something changes.

That means the customer can not locally get expert advice, take courses, ask to see products or get fills.

The question now becomes is the customer better, or worse off, at this point?



Yes I know of several closures in the dive industry. One of which was the LDS I worked at. The reason we closed was the lack of new divers which was our bread and butter business.



Nope! Not a one! But has the consumer benefited from that same competition? I can think of lots of times a better product was buried because of market forces. The winner is not always the better product/process/person. The winner is just the winner.



Yep, and if we let market forces decide that might is right, we'll get what the market wants. And that is not necessairly what we need.

As a last point I have to agree that there are some TERRIBLE LDS's out there. But don't just write all the LDS off as the same. Find one you like and create a relationship with the staff there and you will not be disapointed with the results. But if you are disapointed, then find another LDS.

We as divers need the LDS. But the LDS needs us.

Dive often, dive safe.
Paul

First, let me say how sorry I am that the LDS that employed you went out of business. Other than a lack of new divers, which seems obvious, where there other factors involved? After all, if I open a snowmobile dealership in South Florida I can't realistically blame the economy or internet when my business fails.

All public retailers are subject to tire kickers. It's part of what you should expect when you unlock the door each morning. Apparently, a good deal of dive equipment consumers don't feel that this "free" advice is worth the excessive markups, however.

As to your legal question, AFAIK, the government doesn't initiate class action suits. Those are brought by private parties as civil actions. If the government ever becomes involved I don't think anyone in the industry has deep enough pockets to fight them off. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the manufacturers are bringing this on themselves. I keep hearing how the poor LDS is just abiding by their dealer agreement. The fact is such agreements are illegal. Did someone force these LDS owners into the business? My frustrations are not specifically with the LDS's but rather with the manufacturers. Until enough consumers complain then things won't change. Why do I have to settle for high prices and poor service because someone decided, independant of market forces, that I don't get a choice?

 

[diverbob]

I will only buy from my LDS. If I have any problems at all with anything I buy, I want to be able to talk to someone face to face about what went wrong. I have had one instance where my LDS saved me dives, and also money, due to MY error. I was night diving down in Destin, and a storm wa smoving in as we finshed our last dive. I was in a big hurry to get things cleaned up and put away, I dunked my 1st stage in the fresh water tank before puting it away. Well, whe nI got back to the condo, I noticed that I had forgot to put the dust cap on before I dunked it. That was my last day of diving on vacation anyway. So when I got back, I brought it in and told him what had happened, he took it in back and rebuilt it for me. I have a feeling if I would have bought that reg from somewhere other than him, it would have cost me a lot of money to get that fixed. I have worked very hard to establish a good relationship with my LDS, and likewise, they have worked their butts off to keep me as a paying customer happy. I wont buy from anywhere but my LDS.

 

[yknot]

Welcome to the board.... You are right ... Most LDS only carrying certain brands due to Manufacturer agreement.. You will also find others that carry a different brand... This allows them to stay in business without taking business from another LDS... All I'm saying is to compare prices and then choose... but give the LDS chance to match the price or come close....service is a big deal for me....but it may not be for others...
Rey

Actually this is no different than car dealersips. You don't see new Fords sold next to new Chevys, do you? The reason that the whole service issue is such a big deal is that you are willing to let the manufacturers and their LDS's force you to buy at certain places and prices. Look at Aqualung's web site. Compare US warranties to European warranties. Wouldn't you like to be able to buy online in a competitive atmosphere and still get a warranty?

 

[mikswi]

This shop has been around for 25 years...so I don't know if they are going to go belly up in 6 months after offering free air if you buy a tank!

Relax.................
I was only making an observation regarding the Free Air sticker and its effectiveness on generating business.

Length of time in business has little to do with a persons success. Ive seen Hardware stores that were in business for 3 generations, go under because they lacked the required marketing prowess.

I have also seen a landscaping equiptment business continue to flourish even though a Home Depot & a Lowes opened 1 mile up the road. It still all comes down to attitude, dialing in to your core customer base and offering something the huge chains cant; Knowledge and Service.