Buying a tech BCD prematurely?

[Nick_W]

Using a BC doesn't make any body "wrong" and advocating a BP&W doesn't make one a zealot.

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I'm sick and tired of every single thread about a BC having at least one person claiming the BP/W is the only way to go.

If every new scuba diver had the same access to Jacket BC's and BP&W's your contention that the current high percentage of Jacket BC users validates the basic jacket design would have some merit.

The fact remains that the vast, vast majority of new scuba divers have not even seen a BP&W, have not spoken to a BP&W user, and has no easy way to try one. The same is not true for Jacket BC's. The new diver is typically "immersed" in the benefits of the Jacket BC from the moment they start their training.

Every single student I teach gets to see a BP/W setup, as well as a hybrid, as well as jackets. Overwhelmingly they choose jackets. I don't lie to them, and I'm not the one selling the gear. Fact of the matter is, for your average, one or two vacation dives a year diver, a jacket is just easier. And since the vast majority of divers are just that type, that's what they choose.

It is worth noting that there are very few divers who transition to a BP&W from a Jacket that choose to go back to a jacket. There are a few, but the vast, vast majority of divers who have the opportunity to try a BP&W stick with it.

Where are your stats on this? I personally know of no less than five divers who have tried the BP/W, hated it, and switched back to a back inflation jacket. They are out there.

You make a great product, I'm not knocking it. But lets not pretend it is the answer for everyone.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I'm sick and tired of every single thread about a BC having at least one person claiming the BP/W is the only way to go.

I don't often see BP&W divers claiming that BP&W is the only way to go. I frequently see BP&W users report that they prefer it over what ever they were using.

Should these folks be censored in order to relieve your apparent distress?

Every single student I teach gets to see a BP/W setup, as well as a hybrid, as well as jackets. Overwhelmingly they choose jackets. I don't lie to them, and I'm not the one selling the gear. Fact of the matter is, for your average, one or two vacation dives a year diver, a jacket is just easier. And since the vast majority of divers are just that type, that's what they choose.

Your students are more fortunate than most. What you choose to do doesn't change the fact that most shops do not carry BP&Ws and have a monetary incentive to promote and sell what they do carry.

Where are your stats on this? I personally know of no less than five divers who have tried the BP/W, hated it, and switched back to a back inflation jacket. They are out there.

For starters I've sold 1000's of BP&W's. I have yet to have one returned because the diver was unhappy. I do routinely receive very positive feedback from my customers.

Perhaps you should run a poll. I have no doubt that the happy BP&W contingent will outnumber the dissatisfied.

You make a great product, I'm not knocking it.

Thank you, I never said you were knocking it.

But lets not pretend it is the answer for everyone.

I have "pretended" or even suggested that BP&W are THE ONE UNIVERSAL answer?
Not once.

Need I remind you what the title of this tread is?

"Buying a tech BCD prematurely?"

The OP is clearly headed down the TECH path. You may be correct that some "2 trips a year" vacation divers are adequately served by jacket BC's, but that's not the question here.

The question here is will the OP be impeded in his progress by using a "Tech BC" before he actually starts his "Tech" education.

Can you point to a thread where the suggestion of a BP&W is more appropriate?

Tobin

 

[Nick_W]

I don't often see BP&W divers claiming that BP&W is the only way to go. I frequently see BP&W users report that they prefer it over what ever they were using.

Have you read all these threads? How about the one where the OP specifically says he wants a jacket style and someone comes in saying he should get a BP/W?

Should these folks be censored in order to relieve your apparent distress?

No, clearly they shouldn't. But I shouldn't be, nor am I, censored for saying that the BP/W is not, in fact, the greatest thing to happen to diving since water.

Your students are more fortunate than most.

That's debatable. They still have to put up with me long enough to get certified.

What you choose to do doesn't change the fact that most shops do not carry BP&Ws and have a monetary incentive to promote and sell what they do carry.

And again, we have to ask why that is. Is it because there is some sort of anti-BP/W conspiracy, or is it because the jackets sell? I honestly don't know, but I have to imagine if there was this overwhelming demand for BP/Ws as you would imagine based upon postings here then we would see more BP/Ws in shops.

For starters I've sold 1000's of BP&W's. I have yet to have one returned because the diver was unhappy. I do routinely receive very positive feedback from my customers.

I can't imagine too many people would return stuff because they're unhappy. Besides, I get the feeling the people who are buying from you are the people who really know that's what they want.

Perhaps you should run a poll. I have no doubt that the happy BP&W contingent will outnumber the dissatisfied.

You're probably right. And around here I know for a fact you'll be correct. I don't think the majority of people who try the system don't like it. But I don't think there is this microscopic minority who don't like it either.

Thank you, I never said you were knocking it.

I just wanted to be very clear. I'm not knocking the BP/W and I'm very much not knocking your products. I don't own anything you've made, but I've seen your stuff and did get to dive it once and was impressed. I'm just saying that, even for tech diving, there are other options (depending upon your certifying agency of course ). And to claim (as some, not you, have) that there is no such thing as a tech BC (in other words, the BP/W is the only way to go) is just plain ignorant.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Nick, what exactly do you say to your students? You're the second person I've read who has said they show their students both a jacket and a bp/w, and have them never choose a bp/w.

In my experience, showing the advantages and disadvantages of both, most new divers always choose the bp/w.

 

[Nick_W]

Nick, what exactly do you say to your students? You're the second person I've read who has said they show their students both a jacket and a bp/w, and have them never choose a bp/w.

In my experience, showing the advantages and disadvantages of both, most new divers always choose the bp/w.

Wow, that could be about a ten page post.

I will say this. I do not, will not, and have not ever sold gear, so I really have no vested interest in what they choose to do. I honestly couldn't care less what they choose to use. Well, as long as their choice isn't to use a trashbag filled with air, then I probably wouldn't want my name on their card.

I tell them all of the advantages, as well as the disadvantages of all the types of BCs, to include a BP/W. The one catching point for almost all of them is the fact (and few will dispute this) that a BP/W really isn't the best choice for travel. Also, most of them, being once or twice a year divers, are looking to spend two to three hundred dollars. That's pretty much jacket BC territory.

I should note that you are in NC while I'm currently in a landlocked state. Meaning all of my students are traveling to dive, while a lot of your's probably stay right at home to do it.

 

[nereas]

Tobin rocks!

I must say, of all the equipment suppliers, 3 of them are definitely tops in innovation:

DSS, Oxycheq, and Dive Xtras (DPVs).

I own stuff from all 3.

 

[Nick_W]

Tobin rocks!

I must say, of all the equipment suppliers, 3 of them are definitely tops in innovation:

DSS, Oxycheq, and Dive Xtras (DPVs).

I own stuff from all 3.

I do agree with you there (at least on DSS).

We'll see what Uncle Sam gives me back in the coming months, I may own something from Tobin fairly soon.

 

[nereas]

...I'm sitting here looking at five different BCs I own. Four are traditional jacket styles ...

These are ideal for brand new not-yet-certified divers. It's lifespan is about 6 months, until the new-bee graduates to the next best thing, which is normally either an integrated back-inflation B/C or else a BPW. Whichever it is is a personal matter. I know lots of divers with lots of experience who are in either camp.

I have, for my classes, BCs with and without cumberbunds. ...

These nasty things are only good for ease of application, or for demo-ing by D/Ms in the pool. Otherwise, the buckling waist straps are far superior and much more secure than the cumberbuns.

...crotch strap, I have one on my BC, and I still like to tighten the heck out of my waist strap. I don't know why, I just like knowing it isn't going anywhere I guess. I do that with everything I wear that has a waist strap (which now that I think about it is actually quite a few different things)
...
.

I have found the crotch straps to be a hazard in ditching the weight belt, therefore I myself advocate attaching the crotch strap to the weight belt itself. This way, when you drop the weight belt, you drop the crotch strap as well at the same time.

This is an innovation on my part, and I am probably the only diver on this Earth who does so. That means it will be 5 years before any of the agencies adopts this method, and 10 years before GUE-DIR does.

Once GUE-DIR adopts my method, it will be viewed as the only way to do it right, and they will pretend that they have always done it this way.

 

[Nick_W]

These nasty things are only good for ease of application, or for demo-ing by D/Ms in the pool. Otherwise, the buckling waist straps are far superior and much more secure than the cumberbuns.

Just to clarify, the BC's with cumberbuns I have also have buckling waist straps that go over them.

I have found the crotch straps to be a hazard in ditching the weight belt, therefore I myself advocate attaching the crotch strap to the weight belt itself. This way, when you drop the weight belt, you drop the crotch strap as well at the same time.

I've never had any problems with my crotch strap. Well, except when I forget to undo it during rescue classes. For some reason people aren't big fans of having to undo my crotch strap.

 

[nereas]

...I've never had any problems with my crotch strap. Well, except when I forget to undo it during rescue classes. For some reason people aren't big fans of having to undo my crotch strap.

In a real emergency, you will likely also forget, then it will get hung on you, and then you will more likely as not drown.

It is easy to tell if someone has not yet had any problems with their crotch strap attached over their weight belt: they are still alive; they have simply not yet had to run the gamut; the Reaper is yet waiting for his chance.

And anyone trying to rescue you will certainly overlook this as well.