Buoyancy question how do you maintain a sitting hover?

[The Chairman]

If many divers are 45 degree divers, why not change the engineering so they are neutral?

I can get horizontal with just about any BCD. I've done dives horizontal in poodle jackets, but then again, I use my legs to help balance me out.

1) I tell students, and interested divers, that the gear doesn't make the diver, rather the diver makes the gear do what s/he wants it to do.

Preach on, brother man!

I used to manage a student machine shop. I would show students how to use a particular machine, watch them use it and then sit down and listen. Whenever I heard the tool moan in protest, I would remind the student "It's not the tool!". When you see someone out of kilter in their kit... it's simply not the kit. Make it a point to understand the physics of what you're playing with. Trim. Center of Gravity, Center of Buoyancy, and thrust should all be terms you understand, can explain, and even demonstrate. Once you understand the terms of what you're dealing with, you'll start to better recognize when you're not giving them enough consideration.

Or you can continue to flail and blame everyone and thing except yourself!

 

[MichaelMc]

I fully agree with making the gear do what you want it to:

"You, gear where a balanced weight distribution is hard, sit there."

"You, gear where a balanced weight distribution is easy, come diving with me." (and customize or repair)

 

[Steelyeyes]

View attachment 639970

Love it! Actually made me laugh.

 

[The Chairman]

"You, gear I can easily trim out, come diving with me."

Fit and comfort is my mantra for gear. I wear a back inflate because I don't like a squeeze from my BC.

 

[Celt]

Thigh pockets are a great way to fine tune trim.

 

[FishWatcher747]

I know some of you veterans of scuba feel like, "We had to make our own gear and it took years to get it dialed in, why should newbies have it easy?"

I had to walk 10 miles to school. Hey, I had to walk barefoot. Oh yeah, I didn't even have a school.

Calm down. I have been modifying gear in other sports for years. But asking for a popular BC to have the ability to be adjusted to be weight balanced out of the box is not unreasonable.

Yeah I am horizontal when finning. But when I stop I go feet heavy. That's a design flaw. Now I am going to spend $45 for a stainless steel tank band and $28 dollars for 2 trim pockets to correct the design flaw.

 

[Celt]

I know some of you veterans of scuba feel like, "We had to make our own gear and it took years to get it dialed in, why should newbies have it easy?"

It’s the opposite actually, people are loaded down today with so much gear they look like a tinkers cart on the way to a fair.

 

[Colliam7]

I know some of you veterans of scuba feel like, "We had to make our own gear and it took years to get it dialed in, why should newbies have it easy?"

LOL. Actually, I don't think that was the intended message. Or, I hope some of our comments didn't come across that way. I am actually quite a bit more sympathetic to your situation than you might suspect, in no small part because I see too many divers buying similar rigs and experiencing similar problems.

The reason that I hesitate to call it a 'design flaw' is that I am not at all sure that the design was intended to promote / facilitate good horzontal trim. More likely it was designed to provide 'buoyancy control' underwater, to float you at the surface, and to 'feel' good to you. That is at the heart of my comment that 'manufacturers have come a long way'. But, frankly, from my perspective, in scuba gear design there are still 'miles to go before I sleep'. So, while I personally think it is poor design - from MY perspective - it still may not be a flaw from the manufacturer's perspective. I know, that possibly sounds a bit obtuse.

A few questions, if I may, so I might be better positioned to counsel divers going forward.

1. When you completed your open water training, in what BCD did you train?
2. During your training, how much did your instructor talk about horizontal trim, and how to best achieve it? (Not asking for name or shops, and not trying to pick on or praise any individual instructor.)
3. In purchasing your equipment after (presumably) certification:
a. Why did you specifically pick the Pro HD?
b. Did you buy from a local shop, or online?
c. What alternatives, if any, did you consider? Were you made aware of the potential importance of trim pockets? Were you made aware of potential advantages of a BCD with two cam bands rather than one?
d. From whom did you seek advice on what to buy?
e. Are you diving an AL or steel cylinder, and is it one you own, or do you rent?

There is no hidden agenda, or planned 'gotcha', in these questions.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I will share a couple of my own biases, since I am asking you some questions. One is that I really dislike most weight-integrated BCDs, although that is absolutely the direction in which the industry is moving - because that is what many customers say they want. What I don't like about most WI systems is that the weight pockets are placed BELOW the diver's center of lift (the thorax) and that placement promotes the very problem you describe (and you are absolutely not alone, many other divers experience the same thing). Another bias is that I don't particularly care for floaty, padded, fabric BCDs because they force the diver to pay a penalty for the needless positive buoyancy of the BCD, by having to put more weight in the WI pockets, which makes the problem worse.

Yeah I am horizontal when finning. But when I stop I go feet heavy. That's a design flaw. Now I am going to spend $45 for a stainless steel tank band and $28 dollars for 2 trim pockets to correct the design flaw.

One additional question: how sure are you that you are horizontal when swimming? That is NOT an implied criticism or snarky comment BTW, but a serious question. Have you had anyone take video of you swimming underwater? You may well be, I am just curious if you have had someone else evaluate you U/W.

 

[The Chairman]

Calm down. I have been modifying gear in other sports for years. But asking for a popular BC to have the ability to be adjusted to be weight balanced out of the box is not unreasonable.

I dive the Express Tech by Zeagle. It is simply awesome for the way I dive and super customizable.

But, and the problem with the world is big BUTTs, the physics of diving doesn't change with the gear. If you feel you're feet are too heavy and nothing else works, use those ankle weights on the neck of your tank. Cheap, cheap, cheap, and it requires no additional mods. OK, it's lead, so it's not that cheap, but a damn site cheaper than a BC.

 

[FishWatcher747]

Well if it is not a design flaw it may be design as Collium7 said to make you feel floaty at the surface and floaty in a head up orientation underwater. There are certainly parallels to other sports. If one is a beginner cross country skier they put you in a wide stable ski. If you progress you wonder why the good skiers are way faster in narrow unstable skis. So you have to ditch your stable skis. Possible this BC is like that. I've outgrown it in 69 dives.

The majority of all the instructors and DMs I see are in BPWs so that is telling me something (like 100% of Instructors and 75% of DMs)

To answer some of your questions. I stumbled on the sport because I planned to do a British Virgin Island sailing charter 4/2020, my nephew had dove and wanted me to get certified so he would have a buddy to dive with. I figured I'm not dead yet, so why shouldn't I get into scuba (I'm in early retirement.) Of course the charter got cancelled after I had done the pool sessions due to covid. I was going to do OW in the BVI.

So I decided to get OW at Dutch Springs Quarry, PA last summer. I rented gear for OW, similar jacket style BC. Passed OW. At this point I was unsure diving was right for me. I really didn't like the mask removal thing but passed. That week I bought a package from local shop. I told the owner I didn't want the cheapest package, something midrange, as I am not broke like I was when I was younger. He did mention BPW but I was not really committed at that point.

During OW the DM helpers were hovering and I was trying to imitate them while others did their skills kneeling. So it was emphasized right away. No discussion about putting a second cam band on to get trim weights higher. Nobody had ankle weight around cylinder valve.

I don't recall any discussion with the shop owner about BCs with 2 cam bands. Mine has 2 trim pockets. Problem is they need to be on the nonexistent 2nd cam band at the top of the tank (which I will rectify).

I knew a lifeguard who has been a diver for 40 years and he referred me to the shop I went to. I am not unhappy with the shop.

I've only dove AL80 and I bought 2 of my own.

As far as horizontal swimming I guess what I meant is I can compensate and go in whatever direction I want. You're right in that to swim horizontal what I am doing is finning head down, legs up to compensate for my weighting wanting me to go head up. Problem is as soon as I stop feet go down head goes up. Ironically what I do is tend to go inverted which I like but I also want to correct this issue. If one is not weight balanced the only time one is balanced is vertical and inverted.

Well OW led to AOW led to Rescue last summer. Now I am pretty hooked on this crazy sport.