Buddy Separation - Safety Stop??

[Web Monkey]

Sonar works fine underwater, just not for humans. Our "equipment" wasn't designed to handle the speed of sound in water and can't discriminate direction.

You can do it with electronics, but probably not reliably with anything you'd want to be swimming with.

Terry

I'm going to have to step in here for one second about a post on the first page regarding sub ducks and underwater "sonar". It doesn't work. Please...Please don't rely on it, any sound underwater sounds like it's coming from every direction, it's just the way the water carries the waves.

 

[ClayJar]

A cheap <$10 Storm whistle is a nice addition. It's cheap enough that there's no fiscal excuse not to have one, and you can blow it underwater.

In a "normal" buddy separation (i.e. low vis, but no complicating factors), when you get to your safety stop depth you could sound it (or a sub duck or whatever) with your pre-determined "Hello, out there, are you okay, my lost buddy?" communication. If you get an affirmative reply (also worked out ahead of time), you could make the stop. If you don't get an affirmative reply, skip the stop and go rescue your buddy.

For the record, in the NAUI Rescue class I took, the materials taught that you should skip the safety stop when ascending for a lost buddy. In a real world situation, however, I and my buddies have agreed that it is our standard procedure to make the stops unless we personally consider the dive to be at a point at which a stop provides negligible perceived value.

We're all Rescue and beyond, so we did a very cold and impersonal evaluation of injuries and the relationship between response time and condition (survival rates, recovery times, whatever). For our profiles and the locations we dive, some sets of events went into the "lost cause" basket and were therefore not relevant to the question of direct ascents versus ascents with stops. We then took what remained and compared the perceived benefit of earlier action (no stops) versus the perceived risks to the responding diver, and we based our plans on that. If a lost cause ever comes up, sure, we'll do everything we can, but if it would take a miracle in the first place, we may as well just ask for a slightly larger miracle, if it ever comes up. (We dive often to stay sharp so that it won't.)

 

[jeckyll]

I really don't think there is a single correct answer to this and agree that a detailed discussion with regular buddies is an excellent idea.

In addition, it seems that alot of folks here think that if a buddy is lost he is necessarily at the surface, which may of course not be the case. In which case rushing to the surface will not help the lost buddy, but instead risk injury to yourself (depending on profile and ascent rate etc).

One thing I'd like to add. If you are having the discussion with the buddy, there should be an agreement on what the 'lost' buddy will do. IMO, (s)he should stay at the surface and _wait_ instead of trying to descend on the bubbles. I've had one situation where this did not happen and could have turned into a potential CF. We had a talk about this after and straightened it out...

 

[NJMike]

This is a fascinating thread, especially from my perspective of being an entry level diver, just getting back into diving within the last month, trying to get back up to speed and hoping to make some charter dives next year...

and not having a full time buddy. This means a stranger whom I don't know. (That's called 'being redundant'). Now, I'm no spring chicken at age 51, so I, as an entry level diver, have no quams about insisting on a pre-dive plan with a strange buddy.

So...if he/she, after our pre-dive plan, does not show a desire to stay close and by accident I lose him/her...then, you know what?...sorry, I'll execute the lost buddy procedure, but I WILL DO my safety stop, thank you very much.

Hopefully the scenario would turn out alright, and I could chastise the guy/gal after the dive and tell the DM I want a new buddy.

Is this too harsh?

On the other hand, if it were my wife or best friend (shouldn't they be the same?), it would be extremely difficult to go up with or without the safety stop.

Never heard of the SMB. Will check it out now.

Please let me know if you think what I wrote was too harsh.

 

[REII]

My wife and I both use tank bangers to get each others attention. If we were to get separated and had to acsend, then I think it would be a judgement call based on the situation.

TOM

 

[jeckyll]

NJMike: Don't forget to think about your profile. If you are 5 minutes into a dive to 45 fsw, do you really need to do a stop? Would a controlled ascent be just as well?

What about a 30 minute dive to 55 fsw?

Again, at 51 additional conservatism is a good thing, but really it should be profile dependent. Just my $0.02

 

[NJMike]

Okay, then what's the worse case scenario? If it's just an accidental separation, and both divers do a 3 min stop, then within a few minutes, both should be at the surface. If neither diver does the safety stop, then both should be at the surface 3 minutes quicker.

Now if we say that one diver is in trouble, then the time difference before someone is summoned should be 3 min. I guess, though, if someone is ... what...tangled and can't get loose but has air, then 3 min could make or break the outcome. Especially if it's early in the dive and the diver on the surface has a lot of air left.

So what do you do at that point? You've called the boat captain...now 10 min has gone by since you've surfaced...

What's the standard procedure? Is the DM in charge?

 

[Charlie99]

IMO, (s)he should stay at the surface and _wait_ instead of trying to descend on the bubbles. I've had one situation where this did not happen and could have turned into a potential CF. ...

Please explain a bit about the potential problems of descending on bubbles. Do the same problems apply where a diver has sent up a DSMB and the first diver to the surface descends down the line?

 

[jeckyll]

NJMike: I think you are asking good questions. Many of those would be perfect for a rescue class, just as an aside.

Many things depend on the situation and I don't think you can get standard answers that can be applied to all types of seperations.

All the buddy seperations I've encountered have been due to equipment malfunction (or in one case lack of drysuit familiarity). In one situation I was able to meet up with my buddy underwater as I was ascending. This was due to both of us shining our lights in the direction of the other and a controlled ascent on my part (plus both of us "keeping our heads" and thinking through the situation).

Now my question to you, do you have the skills necessary to deal with a distressed / injured diver at the surface. These skills are typically taught in the rescue course and from everything I've read / heard, dealing with a panicing diver is one of the most dangerous things you'll do in diving.

If they are entangeled, underwater, how would you deal with the situation? I would say that the best way to deal with it is to keep a close eye on your buddy. If something happens to them and you make sure you check on them frequently (I probably verify ever 30 - 45 seconds that my buddy is close) you should either know where to look for them (i.e. whoops that doesn't look good, my buddy is fighting with his drysuit valve .. hmm there is is heading up ... ) or be able to bail them out of whatever situation they are at.

As for DM's being in charge. Quite frankly, I don't do 'follow me' dives. I prefer to plan my diver and execute my plan. If I'm at a new site, a detailed briefing is certainly appreciated, but in the end I am responsible for my own safety and that of my buddy / team. And I like diving with folks who have the same attitude.

I'm not sure how you came up with 10 minutes? If you are a new diver, you should be above 60 fsw. At this point safety stops are optional. At at 30 fpm ascent it would take you 2 minutes to reach the surface after searching for 1 minute. If you check on your buddy every 30 seconds, you are at 3 1/2 minutes from time of buddy seperation. Evern if you throw in a minute or two stop along the way and ascend extra slow from 10 fsw to the surface, you're still only at around 5 minutes.

In a real emergency (i.e. buddy has heart attack at 60 fsw) chances of recovery are slim, though it does happen (I know of one situation locally where the diver was saved after surfacing "blue").

Again, good questions and with that mindset, I think aiming for taking the rescue course down the line would be a wise move

Bjorn

 

[jeckyll]

Please explain a bit about the potential problems of descending on bubbles. Do the same problems apply where a diver has sent up a DSMB and the first diver to the surface descends down the line?

Charlie: Maybe I should have provided more detail:

In my case we had 3 divers, one had a stuck inflator, 2 of us chased from 60 fsw to try and slow his ascent, I was the last to 'give up' the chase at 30 fsw and did a slow ascent from there. At this point you've basically have 3 solo divers. (Vis was good for around here, marginal for elsewhere perhaps around 10 fsw).

With a bit of current the diver with the problem tried to descend on the bubbles. Q: Who's bubbles at this point?

When I surface, I saw _no diver_. Now I got concerned and decided (being newly rescue certified) to descend on the bubbles to ensure rapid ascend buddy was ok! Diver 3 (with the most experience, 2000+ dives) ascended and saw no buddies. Started rescue procedures with fellow divers on shore (visual signals).

Due to the current I lost the bubbles at about 15 - 20 fsw (would have to check my profile to remember, it was a while ago). Ascended again at a slow rate and was _very_ glad to find rapid ascent diver & other buddy at surface. (aside: we towed him in and continued communication to ensure diver was not injured).

If that reads like a total CF, it should. IMO, had buddy 1 remained at the surface, much of the stress to the other 2 divers could have been eliminated.

IMO, if a situation like that presents itself, especially in lower vis, meeting at the surface would be significantly safer. Again, I've had other situations were I re-established contact with my buddy as I was ascending utilizing our lights and we met back up and continued the dive.



Bjorn