Breathing Techniques and Air Consumption

[Bubbletrubble]

I doubt anyone can maintain depth hovering doing deep breaths and those long 5 inhale 5 hold 5 exhale cycles. 10 seconds is enough to throw you off balance unless you breath very shallow, no matter how you learn it physics is physics

@elan: I'm not describing a technique that flies in the face of physics. And, by the way, I didn't advocate using the breathing pattern that you describe above. Too rigorous for my tastes.

It is possible to take normal-to-deep breaths without significantly affecting your vertical position in the water column. I realize that you don't believe me now, but after another 100 - 200 dives, I wonder if you'll feel differently.

 

[elan]

@elan: I'm not describing a technique that flies in the face of physics. And, by the way, I didn't advocate using the breathing pattern that you describe above. Too rigorous for my tastes.

It is possible to take normal-to-deep breaths without significantly affecting your vertical position in the water column. I realize that you don't believe me now, but after another 100 - 200 dives, I wonder if you'll feel differently.

Sorry I did not mean you advocate that I just used your message as the starting point....

Why do not you think I believe you ? I'm no way a master of the buoyancy, but I can maintain my position pretty well while swimming or hovering, I just use different pattern. I usually have a baseline volume from which I exhale and inhale but those exhalations and inhalations take I think around 1 s each so it does not screw my buoyancy.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I'm no way a master of the buoyancy, but I can maintain my position pretty well while swimming or hovering, I just use different pattern. I usually have a baseline volume from which I exhale and inhale but those exhalations and inhalations take I think around 1 s each so it does not screw my buoyancy.

Exhalations and inhalations lasting 1 sec? In my book, that qualifies as shallow breathing. It would be exceedingly difficult to breathe like that for any length of time.

 

[elan]

Exhalations and inhalations lasting 1 sec? In my book, that qualifies as shallow breathing. It would be exceedingly difficult to breathe like that for any length of time.

I just timed it and yeah 1 sec is too short I think it's closer to 2 sec. so it's about 2 sec each way then 4-5 sec not breathing at the base line then again

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I just timed it and yeah 1 sec is too short I think it's closer to 2 sec. so it's about 2 sec each way then 4-5 sec not breathing at the base line then again

That sounds more reasonable.

 

[RJP]

If he can do it while hovering, then, based on the same technique, he should be able to do it while moving at a constant depth.

You do understand that you're including an assumption of the proper outcome as a necessary precondition for success, right?

"he should be able to do it while moving at a constant depth"

If he's "moving at a constant depth" he's ALREADY controlling his buoyancy, therefore doesn't need help in doing so.

The problem with "if you can hover you can do it while moving" is that's only true if the diver in question has 100% perfectly horizontal trim and expert-level propulsion techniques. Why? Because a diver in a neutral hover with even a slight head-feet or feet-head angle translates in to either "swimming up" or "swimming down" when they start moving. Similarly, if they somehow manage to maintain horizontal trim, but have poor fining technique they will invariably either swim down or up. So now they are not only struggling to maintain neutral buoyancy, but are also fighting their own tendency to inappropriately go up or down. What happens then? With fair certainty I will predict that they will begin fighting their legs by sculling with their hands to maintain depth, so now they're burning through their gas way to fast...which is where I we got on this merry go round in the first place.

This is why you can't come up with "tricks" or "workarounds" as a substitute for proper buoyancy control. It's a closed-system, vicious-cycle kinda thing.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@RJP: I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote for the sole purpose of arguing. The tone of the majority of your posts is pretty abrasive, and I tend to ignore what you write for that very reason...but in this thread I think you've been quite helpful. I'll clarify the point just in case dstrout is interested.

Dstrout had mentioned that he tends to move up and down for a few feet while trying to hover or to move horizontally at a constant depth, and he attributed this to buoyancy changes due to breathing. I explained that the timing of his breaths (inhale vs. exhale) can be controlled such that moving up/down in the water column can be dampened. This breathing technique can be practiced by simply hovering and taking normal-sized breaths but synchronizing the breath cycle such that vertical movement is mitigated. After experimenting with this in a hover, he can apply it while moving horizontally. The same principles would be in effect.

I did not mention proper horizontal trim and good finning technique. Yes, of course, those are important factors that will determine how well he moves through the water. I assumed that dstrout's trim, finning, and buoyancy control were already pretty decent.

Newer divers are taught to "breathe deeply" underwater. When they see how breathing affects buoyancy, many just assume that it's impossible to hover without taking shallow breaths. They think that they can either "breathe deeply" or hover...but not do both at the same time. I was trying to dispel that misconception. Breath synchronization is the key.

I wouldn't characterize my recommendations as "tricks" or "workarounds." I never asserted that the breathing awareness that I advocate should ever substitute for proper buoyancy control. In fact, they are complementary.

 

[RJP]

@RJP: I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote for the sole purpose of arguing.

I'm always amazed at how many people mistake "discourse" for "argument" here on SB, but I guess it's the world overall in which we live. Anyone who is not familiar with thr differences and similarities between the two terms is invited to skip this post.

I wouldn't characterize my recommendations as "tricks" or "workarounds." I never asserted that the breathing awareness that I advocate should ever substitute for proper buoyancy control. In fact, they are complementary.

I wasn't specifically addressing you with my "tricks and workarounds" comment but rather the relatively pervasive mindset of those who seek and/or offer such things instead of focusing on things that will actually be effective.

From a strict neuromechanical "learning" perspective there is no such thing as a "complementary recommendation" because any such thing quite literally inhibits the brain's ability to effectively recognize and imprint the proper muscle memory and proprioception necessary to incorporate a skill at a level where it can be executed without conscious thought and concentration. By definition, what you are recommending is not "complementary" techniques but rather "contrary" techniques.

For example, a golf instructor will never allow a student with a slice to line up facing 20degrees to the left as a "complementary recommendation" to be employed while he's trying to teach the student to hit the ball straight. Why? Because it's impossible for the brain and body to effectively and repeatably learn what it feels like to hit the ball straight...if you are lined up 20degrees to the left. It's simply an untenable position, and therefore a contrary recomendation.

Similarly, it's very difficult for the brain/body to effectively learn how to "dive without thinking about how you're breathing" if at the same time you are employing "breathing awareness" recommendations. Doing so results in an incomplete imprint of the skill/task at the unconscious level, such that some portion of the execution of that skill/task always requires conscious thought. This becomes a problem in an activity like diving where a simple distraction like a flooded mask or momentary lack of focus can cause such a diver to lose buoyancy control in a way that can get them "in the weeds fast" - and I don't me off the fairway on some lovely golf course.

Disclaimer: this post has been analyzed and found to contain high-levels of discourse. If you are known to be allergic to discourse or other underlying components, such as logic or reason, etc,... I must ask you to move on.

 

[TSandM]

Similarly, it's very difficult for the brain/body to effectively learn how to "dive without thinking about how you're breathing" if at the same time you are employing "breathing awareness" recommendations. Doing so results in an incomplete imprint of the skill/task at the unconscious level, such that some portion of the execution of that skill/task always requires conscious thought.

I found this statement interesting. The sequence for me was

1) Complete unawareness of my breathing pattern, which meant any task-loading meant loss of buoyancy control because my breathing would alter.

2) Awareness of my breathing pattern, which allowed me to make conscious efforts to keep it unaltered under task loading. Lots of practice of this allowed me to reach:

3) Almost total unawareness of my breathing pattern, which now holds steady under task loading most of the time. The only time I have to think about my breathing now is if something's going sideways and I take conscious control of it to bring things back to where I want them.

Without step 2, I'd never have reached step 3. I have no idea how one would start with unawareness and reach stability under task-loading or stress, without going through a phase of controlling things consciously.

(Hopefully, that qualifies as discourse.)

 

[Diver Tim]

Sounds semantic, but don't talk to him about "his breathing" because telling someone "don't think about how you're breathing" is only going to get them to HYPER-FOCUS on...how they're breathing.

Alright everybody... DON'T THINK ABOUT ZEBRAS!

(Did it work?)

...how do you walk down the street without your head bobbing up and down +/- 2-3"? How do you avoiding swaying half-a-foot from side to side?

I forego those last couple of cocktails, that's how.

I'm always amazed at how many people mistake "discourse" for "argument" here on SB, but I guess it's the world overall in which we live.

HEAR HEAR!

All of that being said, I'm right now in the "consciously varying my inhalation/exhalation depth, sometimes by quite a bit, to control my buoyancy" stage. My buoyancy control has improved DRAMATICALLY over my first few dives, and in turn that is making me more comfortable in the water, which in turn helps my buoyancy, hopefully making it a non-vicious cycle. I'm really hoping this will all help my SAC, since that hasn't improved at the same rate. Patience, I suppose.

"The only problem with instant gratification is that it takes too long." (paraphrasing Carrie Fisher.)