Breathing physiology... whats best for off-gassing

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Originally posted by NetDoc
As for horizontal being "essential" for neutral buoyancy, you are all wet. Cavers need -THAT- degree of control. The average (and above average) OW diver does not! They are not worrying about silt outs and such. They don't want to hit the bottom and they don't want to float to the surface.

Don't get me wrong TRIM IS A GREAT THING TO HAVE ON YOUR SIDE. But asking an OW or AOW to deal with trim while learning the real basics is just plain masochistic.

Horizontal is just too difficult for OW, AOW & smug DMs....

Pete, first you said you wanted a Medical Doc to give an opinion and you would accept that....

Now you want statistics....

I think the real reason you are fighting this so hard is because of where the theory came from....

You are the only one mentioning *cavers* *stroke* *god* *ect.*...

We have presented reasons for the horizontal position....
You have presented the only reason for the vertical....
Quoted above....

In what appears to be a very long thread for this forum no one else has come forth with another reason for vertical....

Perhaps we need a poll to see who votes for vertical and who votes for horizontal as best .... and not just because that is the only thing they can do.... but from the arguments presented here...
which position seems to have won.

Practice, practice, practice.....
When you can do slow controlled horizontal ascents....
With perfect stops....
While you are air sharing ....
With a buddy who has lost his mask....
And you must manage both of your buoyancy....
And both of your gas switches....
While shooting a lift bag for the boat to track....
Let me know you still prefer vertical.
 
When Dr Deco wrote...

Originally posted by Dr Deco
On a practical level, I would not expect to see any real change in washout times in such a series arrangement (lung to tissue to lung).


I believe him... it’s what I was saying from the get go. IF there are any variances they would be minor indeed. I am not sure how you twist this to support the need for a horizontal attitude BECAUSE of better gas exchange. As I said, your other reasons make some sense to me... not that I do the type of diving that you do, and have no need to prove my manliness in such a way. I really don’t have a need to make diving more difficult, so that I can prove my prowess as a diver. I am quite comfortable with my level of diving skills. BTW, my original contention was…

Originally posted by NetDoc
And Roakey, as for horizontal off-gassing... hmnnn I don't think that's a viable theory.


I still stand by that statement. Even Roakey backed off on his original premise, and then tried to re-couch the argument to prove that there actually was better off gassing while horizontal. Still no data, and a doctor who says that he would “not expect to see any real change”… Go figure!

As for the cavers/strokes/god slant, I have heard the same unsupported theory from only two other divers... both of them were DIR, and both were preaching their gospel according to their "god". It’s funny, but I got the same response when I asked for data and proof from them… “It’s just so obvious!” Well, it’s only obvious on a very superficial level. Look below the surface (pun intended) and your house of cards crumbles. I guess when the DIR crowd tells me the world is flat, I should just submit to their obvious superior intellect and acquiesce! If I were to hazard a guess about you, you also ascribe to the DIR regimen, correct? So, do I dismiss this DIR/off-gassing theory amongst DIR divers as a coincidence? OR, as now from four different DIR divers, spouting the same unsubstantiated philosophy can I conclude that this is indeed taught as a DIR precept? Now, if you are NOT DIR, then we have proof of at least one non-DIR diver who thinks this is true.

Smug, vertically attituded DM strokes rule!
 
Originally posted by NetDoc
When Dr Deco wrote... I believe him

When Dr. Paul Thomas wrote...you didn't believe him...

As I said, your other reasons make some sense to me... not that I do the type of diving that you do, and have no need to prove my manliness in such a way. I really don’t have a need to make diving more difficult, so that I can prove my prowess as a diver. I am quite comfortable with my level of diving skills.

I think I see your problem here... Pete this isn't about proving manliness nor prowess... but then I have no need for smugness either..... how about you Roakey? I want what works best and I am willing to practice until I can do it.

both of them were DIR, and both were preaching their gospel according to their "god".

As I suspected...you angst is directed at DIR

Smug, vertically attituded DM strokes rule!

Rule what for Pete's sake! (pun intended) Pete, with that egomanical statement your prove that you really don't have anything to be smug about here.
 
The good Dr Thomas indicated that he thought he could possibly be wrong, and he even asked for correction if that were the case. He also used the words "seemed" and "theoretical" in what he had to say. Dr Deco was a bit more to the point. AND Dr Thomas did say…

Originally posted by Dr Paul Thomas
I am not at all sure that the lungs are the limiting factor here at all.


I do agree with him on that… and that was the initial premise of why the smug DM was wrong. Do you accept that Uncle Pug? Still, neither of them provided any clear empirical data as to which would be better. It is not uncommon for doctor's opinions to disagree, and I guess since I have known Dr Deco longer and considering that he is probably better versed in diving medicine (just by looking at the nick, as I have no other reference) I will accept his opinion.

You never answered whether you were DIR or not... I only pointed out the coincidence. Am I off target about your allegiance? As for as angst... I have nothing particularly against DIR divers and I definitely don't feel angst (anxiety) when encountering one. I am not sure why you feel so strongly that I should accept your theory of off gassing without data. It seems unreasonable to be asked to accept this without real proof. You can take the vote. However, I wasn’t aware that any of the laws of physics or physiology were open to repeal. If that’s true, I would like to take an immediate vote on the effects of aging!!!

As for the manliness etc... well then we must agree. For the average open water diver who does not penetrate wrecks or caves or do any technical diving, there is no need for them to operate at that skill level. I would not encourage them to try to emulate cave/wreck/technical divers until they take the appropriate training. I hope you would not advocate that either. We certainly do not need any more wannabes in the water. To quote you…

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
Horizontal is just too difficult for OW, AOW & smug DMs....


I agree with you. If they do not need these skills to dive safely within their training, then the only other reason would have something to do with proving that you can just do it just to show that they could do it. Sounds like it’s a macho/cowboy thing to me! I would rather an open water or advanced open water diver try and dive at their level of competence. Improve their skills??? SURE! Attempt advanced skills without proper training or supervision? NO! I am sure you were not advocating that I try all of those skills at the end of your post without training and supervision. I’ll even agree with Roakey’s idea about trim as something an instructor briefly hits on and helps his student adjust. But, I don’t think I would expect an OW or AOW to be able to shoot a bag, whilst dealing with all of the other contingencies. I know I couldn’t do it and I wouldn’t attempt it!

Now for my last statement that you take issue with…

Originally posted by NetDoc
Smug, vertically attituded DM strokes rule!


I am sorry that you can’t tell my humor from the rest of my post. That I used self deprecating humor, only shows that I haven’t lost all sense of it. If that offended you, then I am truly sorry…

Signed,
Your repentant, megalomaniacal, smug, vertically attituded DM stroke… (not sure I can add much more to this signature line.)
 
BTW Pete what is the record for a thread here on Scuba Board?
And have you seen the number of hits this one has generated??
And does the count include the stuff before you split us???
And where is Roakey???? What have you done with Roakey????

OK.

Let's get the facts out on the table here...

Reasons for horizontal positioning:
1. Drag reduction whilst swimming
2. Elimination of Dynamic lift whilst swimming
3. Increased Drag during ascent
4. Claimed by horizontal advocates>
Better ( i.e. more even) off gassing at capillary beds & lungs

Reasons for vertial positioning:
I'll let you fill this one in Pete.
 
Somehow, I think we are debating different issues together. I agree with numbers 1,2 AND 3. Not a problem, I have no issue with them (although, I am not sure that I need to use #3 as I dive a wetsuit, and am always swimming my way to the surface). #4 however is a BC of a different color.

I am not even advocating that vertical is better than either horizontal or even inverted. ALL I have ever disagreed with is the off-gassing theory. Well, at least in this thread. I disagreed with it when it was first said that there was a pressure differential in the lungs, and I disagree with it now that the pressure differential has moved outside of the lungs.

My entire point is that the premise of being able to ascertain respiratory efficiency in such a complex system as the human body is severely flawed. AND... the only way to determine IF and/or how much it is improved or reduced is by measuring it. All of the theories and conjectures would be moot with some hard data. It might be that respiratory efficacy is increased... but the mechanism of that increase has not been suggested in this thread.

It boils down to the poor DM being dissed in the first (actually before the first) post, and being called "smug". I just had to point out that maybe he had his reasons for being smug!

Now, I do have a specific question that is a tangent. Can I take it from two of your posts back that you are not advocating, and that you actually disavow any knowledge of DIR??? GUE is close enough (and I hope I did not start a war with that) if that is your "discipline". I would sincerely like to know! And no, just like voting for which one is right, the answer has no bearing on respiratory efficiency.

As for the Roak-meister... he is on the board but not posting here. Maybe he is tired of this thread.

As for the longest thread... I know that the Rednecks, and the Divers parodies continued threads are waaaayyyy longer, and I don't think that they are the longest.
 
Bold posted by NetDoc
Somehow, I think we are debating different issues together. I agree with numbers 1,2 AND 3.

I wasn't really debating .... more like baiting ..... forgive me...

My issue from the original thread was perfect buoyancy comes from perfect trim.... #4 was a side issue....

It boils down to the poor DM being dissed in the first (actually before the first) post, and being called "smug". I just had to point out that maybe he had his reasons for being smug!

Hmmmm.... I thought it was you who first mentioned smug DM...

Now, I do have a specific question that is a tangent. DIR??? GUE

I tried to keep this out of it as it really has no bearing on anything in this discussion and I am after all a refugee from rec.scuba where this goes onandonandonandon......

Check my profile and you will see the *uniform* but this is not cave stuff.... this is OW for us....

As for the Roak-meister... he is on the board but not posting here. Maybe he is tired of this thread.

Tell the truth Pete... you killed him didn't you?!?!?

As for the longest thread... I know that the Rednecks, and the Divers parodies continued threads are waaaayyyy longer, and I don't think that they are the longest.

I finally figured out how to check such things and we are so far down the list .... social issues are always more well read....

Friends??? :alright:
 
Well, I have a reason for vertical positioning! Those of us who supervise certified divers or students often spend a lot of time vertical to the group. Since most of us have our eyes perpendicular to our heads, it's a lot easier to see the group this way. So if you see an instructor or DM (smug or otherwise) hovering vertical it ain't necessarily because it's the only way he/she knows how.

Neil
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom