Breathing physiology... whats best for off-gassing

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Originally posted by NetDoc
Thank you WaterGal!!!
...
Breathing comes mostly from the diaphragm, and I agree any difference in efficiency would be very minimal... 2% max (either way) at 15 ft!

A bouquet of to you for your fact finding efforts...
Pete, I took watergal's statement of “Again, this has NOTHING to do with water column pressure gradient...” as saying that her post does not address our vertical/horizontal discussion, but as refuting your statement that "taken to it's logical conclusion, sanding on your head would be more efficient."

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your jubilation, but it appears you interpreted Watergal’s pulmonologist buddy as supporting your position. I took it as not addressing either of our positions except to say, “standing on your head would be a bad idea because your guts would be sitting on top of your diagphram.”

Watergal, perhaps you could clarify since I think that Pete and I saw two completely different posts in your one. :)
Originally posted by NetDoc
Finally, I do not believe that the amount of difference would be enough to put anyone in danger. I believe the number given was 5%, and that for only the lower alveoli. If the average depth of all alveoli (between 6 and 18 inches) equated to a 1 foot increase of depth, this would only be an actual 3 % change of pressure at water level(1/33=0.0303). This would be reduced to a mere 2% change at a 15 foot safety stop(1/48=0.0208) (for simplicity’s sake, I just used 33 ft for the first atmosphere of pressure...
I don't think danger has ever entered into the discussion. It's simply more efficient, so it pads your safety margin just a little bit more.

Pete, where did the 5% number come from and to what are you referring to?

I still don't understand what the 3% or 2% is supposed to mean, that's the delta in pressure, but given that supposedly you can embolize in 6 feet of water, that means you can cause major lung damage at mere 18%, so these small numbers can mean something. I also don't understand why you're basing your percentages on 1 ATM. If I'm vertical at the safety stop (assuming average lung depth is 1 foot lower than my mouth) that's a .5 psi difference, and if I'm at 100 feet that's still a .5 psi difference. Are you saying that depth is an additional variable?

If we were talking a closed system and Boyles Law I could see where the % would be pertinent, but we're talking about an open system, and drawing gas into your lungs against a 1 foot/.5 psi deficit is the same no matter what the depth.

Roak
 
Actually Watergal's pulmonologist buddy gives us yet another angle on the problem.

If all your guts sitting on top of your diaphragm are a problem in a head down position, how much force are they exerting on the diaphragm to cause this problem?

I admit, I’m going to take some wild guesses here. Lets’ say the liver, kidneys, intestines and any other organs you have slopping around under your diaphragm weigh about 50 pounds (WAG). I have a 36 inch waist. To make things simple, let’s say I’m shaped like a cylinder, so my diaphragm is about 36 / pi (3) = 12 inch diameter, so 6 inch radius ^ 2 * pi = 108 square inches. 50 pounds / 108 square inches = .5 psi.

Interesting coincidence!

Because the diaphragm is about 18 inches below your mouth, we’re talking a water pressure of about .75 psi at your diaphragm. This is a pressure greater than that exerted on your diaphragm by your guts in a head-down vertical position. And a pressure of only about .5 psi on your diaphragm is something that a “pulmonologist buddy” thinks would be counter productive to efficient breathing!

Interesting point, though I admit that it has a ton of hand waving behind it! :)

Roak
 
The thought was supposed to be that standing on one's head is bad for breathing, either in or out of water.

There is another factor in the vertical/horizontal issue--temperature. The expired air is warmer than inspired air--warm air rises. How much does this impact gas exchange efficiency? I have no idea. Introductory thermodynamics was many moons ago and I am not sure I understood it then. Just pointing out that there is more to consider than the distance between the regulator and the bottom of the lungs.

Has anyone asked DrDeco?


Watergal,MD
 
Ahem....

The *weight* of your guts.....
Even ponderous belly....
When under water....
Float like jelly....

UW, inverted, vertical your gut causes no *weight* against the movement of your diaphram....

OK... nnow that we've dispensed with that red herring/////

I suspect that much of the animous against the idea of horizontal postioning during deco.....

Is caused by the lack of ability to maintain such position in a motionless, effortless hover.

I also suspect that the DM smugness factor is a cover for the same inability.

So to clear the deck for honest discussion, ask yourself:
Can I maintain motionless at +- two foot depth....
upright vertical
inverted vertical
prone
supine
Eyes open or eyes closed
??????

BTW.... the main reason for a horizontal position on ascent has nothing to do with gas exchange....
 
for the horizontal position for deco U P???

Roak, you are where I was last week, realizing that there is no way in hell to determine just WHAT is going on physiologically speaking, without actually measuring things. So many conflicting theories etc that sound somewhat reasonable, but w-a-y too many mitigating factors that complicate each theory.

I did ask Dr Deco to come view this thread...

As for the smug DMs... they are always taking it on the chin, that I like them to have something to call their own. The animosity is not towards being horizontal... it was towards the first statement that was made which I took issue with.

Originally posted by roakey
Not only does this demonstrate that they have horrible trim, but a vertical position is the worst position for gas exchange due to the hydrostatic head that’s developed between the top and bottom of your lungs. The alveoli at the bottom are subjected to a greater pressure (about .5 psi) and don’t expand as readily as the ones near the top. In a horizontal position this pressure difference is more than halved, and more alveoli can be used for effective gas exchange.
Roak
 
Almost forgot...

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
So to clear the deck for honest discussion, ask yourself:
Can I maintain motionless at +- two foot depth....
upright vertical
easily (smugly even) :tease:
inverted vertical
easily
prone
easily
supine
not sure - altho I have done it near the bottom.
Eyes open or eyes closed
No need; never tried it
??????
 
Originally posted by NetDoc
for the horizontal position for deco U P???

Drag Pete.....

Drag is your enemy when swimming so horizontal is better....
most of the time....

Drag is your friend on ascent as it helps you slowly get to your deco stop and then hold it without shooting past....

:)
 
makes sense! Although, I usually am negative when I ascend, so I always swim up. I seem to end up in the prone position before it's time to continue on up. My OMS IQ & Steel hp PST 120 keeps me pretty flat, with just a smidgen of head up. I would rather have my head a smidgen down as a default, but I accomodate the slight change in attitude pretty effortlessly.
 
Originally posted by watergal
The thought was supposed to be that standing on one's head is bad for breathing, either in or out of water.
Ok, that's what I thought you were saying, I just wanted to make sure.
Originally posted by watergal
There is another factor in the vertical/horizontal issue--temperature. The expired air is warmer than inspired air--warm air rises. How much does this impact gas exchange efficiency? I have no idea. Introductory thermodynamics was many moons ago and I am not sure I understood it then. Just pointing out that there is more to consider than the distance between the regulator and the bottom of the lungs.

Has anyone asked DrDeco?

Watergal,MD
Well, if you want to look at that level of gas density you'll have to look at moisture content, since that has more an effect than the temperature. The lung’s linings moisturize the dry air from your cylinder and therefore the air you exhale is heavy with water and will be denser than the air that you inhaled and will sink.

Personally I don't think either temperature or moisture content enters into the equation, because the volumes we're talking about are so small.

I'm assuming DrDeco would have weighed in on this if he had felt like it.

Roak
 
Originally posted by NetDoc
makes sense!

Good!!!

Well I just finished blending two sets of double 104s and were off like a....

like a....

....we're going diving.....

Time to restore my profile.....
After two days I start to get a little dehydrated.....
 

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