Breathing physiology... whats best for off-gassing

[roakey]

Hi Mike,

You’re right, we’ve moved far away from the original topic, with good reason because it became more and more obvious that the root of the misunderstanding was far away from the original topic. Until Pete and I get past these fundamental problems, we can’t address the original disagreement.

To answer your question directly:

The disagreement is over if a pressure gradient across the lungs from a diver in a vertical position causes progressive collapse of the alveoli.

The point of contention that we’re currently on is that Pete thinks that somehow the lungs (and all soft tissues for that matter) are somehow exempt from the effects of external pressure.

That’s why the entire last reply was trying to get the point across that all soft tissues, including the lungs are directly effected by external pressure.

If we can get past this point we can move on.

Sorry that it’s so tedious Mike, but physics always is unless you’re warped and you like it

Roak

 

[The Chairman]

Since some have resorted to insult rather than reasoning, I will vacate this arena. You should learn to augment your argument and not raise your voice. Next time go to Rec.Scuba... they like that there! This is why I do not care for DIR, where their opinions are treated as fact and anything and everything will be twisted just so THEY are not wrong. Its not a matter of WHAT is right to them, but that THEY are right, even when wrong. Do not dare to have a different opinion for that is anathema. This is how they make that “intuitive leap” to justify their overfilling cylinders and such. Just keep saying that the world is flat, threaten those who disagree with you, and you will be fine. I am sorry that I have challenged your omnipotence! I am not worthy even to buckle your fin straps. Such a shame that their psuedo-science overlooks such glaring logical errors. Have a nice life... The truth is out there; But you seem not to care!

 

[roakey]

Pete, we were both slinging, but I'm willing to back off if you are.

Want to try it one last time? I think I'm right, and you think you're right, that's the very genesis of debate. I think we can do this without resorting to insult, wanna try from here on out? Let's go for it.

I won't resort to insult. I really really, want to find out where our disagreement lies. Rather than arguing, I'd like to find out what we agree on, which was the mistake I've made up to now. We only know where we disagree.

So if you're willing, I'll put on my nice guy hat and see if we can step by step go through the process to find where our paths diverge.

I'll also keep it short.

I'd like to make one assumption statement and then present two premises and go on from there.

Assumptions: For simplicity, can we assume that 1ATM is 15 psi and water increases .5 psi per foot. Our example is diver six feet in height. We’ll assume that for short heights (let’s say six feet) that air/breathing gas has no pressure gradient.

Is this Ok?

Now for two premises, I’d just like to know if we can agree if they’re true or not.

1) A diver standing in air has no external pressure gradient.
2) A vertical diver immersed in water has a 3 psi external gradient from the top of his head to his feet.

That’s it. Do you agree with these or not? If you agree that they’re true, we’ll move on. No insults, no digs.

If you'd like to do the same and set forth your premises, I’ll respond as well.

Roak

 

[miked]

Hi, Uncle Pug,

Thanks for the clarification. It was brief, clear and to the point.
I thought that was the most recent topic, but I wanted to be sure.


Hi Roakey,

Thanks to you, too, for the clarification.
BTW, any "tedium" I felt in reading the more lengthy posts was caused by the "tenor" of the posts, rather than the scientific content.
On a scientific level, it was an interesting series of exchanges.My interest,however, was deterred by the "other stuff".
(I must be "warped" too, because I do like physics.)


In any event , thanks again,and happy holidays to all.

Mike

 

[miked]

Hi, Uncle Pug,

Thanks for the clarification. It was brief, clear and to the point.
I thought that was the most recent topic, but I wanted to be sure.


Hi Roakey,

Thanks to you, too, for the clarification.
BTW, any "tedium" I felt in reading the more lengthy posts was caused by the "tenor" of the posts, rather than the scientific content.
On a scientific level, it was an interesting series of exchanges.
(I must be "warped" too, because I do like physics.)


In any event , thanks again,and happy holidays to all.

Mike

SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST-SCREWED UP, THEN COULDN'T DELETE IT

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by miked
BTW, any "tedium" I felt in reading the more lengthy posts was caused by the "tenor" of the posts, rather than the scientific content.

For that I apologize. I'm passionate about what I think is right. I hope to continue and, at the very least, find out what Pete's and my impass is.

Roak

 

[100days-a-year]

How does Boyles law play into this?Can a human respiratory system connected to a scuba system and under a pressure gradient be considered a closed system?Does the theory proposed have any empirical evidence?If there is no pressure gradient how can the increased incidence of DCS in the upper extremeties be explained?I'd love to see you guys make up and answer all these questions so NetDocs aim(to see that the truth be known)can be accomplished.It is kind of moot for rec. dives but I'd hate to see such a basic point of decompression theory mis-understood by who ever has it incorrect.I propose a few sterting agreements.1.Liquids are uncompressable2.Gasses are compressable3.The human body being mostly liquid is not compressable(don't pick this apart yet)4.The human body is chock full of cavities and gasses wich are compressable5.Blood is a liquid with gasses in suspension.6.NO namecalling,no inferences about intellect,education or reasoning ability.I can't believe I waited a year to start reading this particular forum!Any takers ?Happy Holydays!!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by 100days-a-year
How does Boyles law play into this? Any takers ? Happy Holydays!!

You Bad =-)

We were just breakin this up for holiday cheer and holyday peace......

Now we gonna start in all over!!!

:boom:

 

[roakey]

Tony, 1-6 yes.

 

[Uncle Pug]

1. yes
2. yes
3. ok
4. ok
5. ok, I understand what you mean
6. of coarse.... I mean of course....

Give it your best shot....