-hh once bubbled...
It comes down to seperating our transportation "needs" versus our transportation "wants".
Hm. Well, maybe the Mercedes vs. Hyundai analogy wasn't a good example. Perhaps the 2wd truck vs. the 4wd truck is a better analogy.
You say that 4wd costs more... I say, "So?" You say that it's not necessary. I say it is. It depends on what you do when you're driving; or what you do when you're diving.
...And when you ask me to show you an instance when 4wd comes in handy, I quote, "whenever you go offroad." You point out that your driveway isn't paved and that your Toyota Camry does just fine on it without 4wd.
I say, "The big tires and ground clearance mean the difference between getting out of a bad situation or not," and you say, "Most drivers never have a need for it." That may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that if I have a truck with 4wd, I can go places and do things that a Camry can't. And there's nothing that a Camry can do that a 4wd truck can't.
I'll maintain that you and I are having bigger problems than is obvious... My concept of "offroad" may be four days in the Baja of Mexico, or the backwoods of Georgia's high country. Your idea of "offroad" may be your unpaved driveway, and inherently, you can't see why I think that 4wd is so important.
I suggest that when I say, "horizontal diver" or "balanced and trimmed" or "neutral buoyancy," you have a radically different mindset. It's no wonder why you don't see the advantages in a bp/wing, yet I place such a high priority on them. I'm sure it's true that you feel that 95% of divers would not see the advantages in a bp/wing, and since most of the divers you've dived with already own an "off the shelf" BC, purchasing a bp/wing is a frivilous expense with little benefit to you... And more of a "want" than a "need."
Following the analogy further, it would be as if you claimed that "driving is a skill that you have to learn when there is not enough horsepower (or 4wd)." I tell you that you have a point, but that an Indy car is still going to smoke a Honda Accord on the track, no matter how much talent is behind the wheel... And a 4wd pickup can pull a boat out of the water on a slippery landing in some places where 2wd simply won't cut it.
My point is that the tools are important. Not as important as the skills - you and I agree on that. But without the right tools, the most talented person in the world ain't gonna breathe underwater, know what I mean?
My bottom times were unchanged (my SAC is typically just under 0.4); I consider this to be one of the "no BS" measures.
That's certainly an excellent SAC, no matter what sort of equipment you choose to dive with. In fact, it's bordering on stellar. Are you sure of that number? Did you not do any swimming at all?
(My numbers are: If I'm completely resting, .38... But that's like hovering near the bottom, doing nothing. My normal "working dive" is something around .53, but I plan at about .70.)
My in-water qualitative comfort was unchanged.
When you say, "unchanged," you mean, "different, but a wash?" I have a hard time understanding how someone could go from a jacket with padding all over and an air bladder all over to a bp/wing with a metal plate and some straps and not feel a difference. I certainly can feel a huge difference. I find your typical jacket messy and unstable, whereas I find a bp/wing stable and unobtrusive.
My trim was better in the Jacket, but this is learning curve.
You're kidding... Really? That's the first time I've heard that. What sort of undesireable effects did the bp/wing have on your trim? What did it do to you?
Travel suitcase packing size - a wash.
This one surprises me too... Your typical bp/wing folds pretty flat... Say, a 12" x 18" x 3" square. I can't imagine that you could get that out of a jacket BC... Especially an hour or two after diving, when a jacket BC is still full of water. Care to comment?
Surface float was worse, but we've already discussed this.
Well, yes... A while ago, and with a different focus. I'd be interested in your comments on surface float.
What I've found with my rig is that at the surface, it's completely balanced - and has no "face forward" tendency at all, like you sometimes get out of an "off the shelf" back-inflate BC. It's to do with the trim of the rig, once again. If your rig is pushing you face-forward into the water, I suggest that it's got less to do with where the air bladder of the BC is, and more to do with where your weight is. Getting the weight up and behind you - in trim pockets on an "off the shelf" BC (or in a backplate on a bp/wing) I have found will neutralize any tendency to "faceplant" at the surface.
...And here's what I've found with my bp/wing... I actually like the security of the crotchstrap at the surface, combined with the neutral rig, over the "hold you up by the armpits and sometimes even float up above your shoulders" feeling of your typical jacket-style BC.
...Because of this, I would actually claim that I like the surface characteristics of a bp/wing BETTER than the surface characteristics of a jacket BC.
I remember the first time I dove a balanced bp/wing with a proper "soft" 2" crotchstrap... I even said out loud, "Ohmygosh, is this nice!"
Using your analogy, its because we need to recognize that we're not all the veteran carpenter, and we're not all building entire houses every week.
The general recreational diver analogy would be of the general homeowner who has an occasional (vs daily) need to cut three pieces of trim for a window (vs 20 windows/day). Sure, the $200 compound power miter saw is a nice tool, but because its going to collect dust 364 days/year, it will take him several years at 1 window/year to recoup just the productivity loss of having to drive to the Lowes to buy the tool, let alone justify the expense. As such, I find that hard to characterize such a tool as a "need".
What it really comes down to is that as "mere" recreational divers, most of us are not going to develop our skills to the point such that we're also squeezingthe last ~5% of performance out of our gear as well on every dive. We're diving for fun.
Well, those are the words I find most comical.
Read the DIR-F manual by JJ... He makes no bones about it that the one and only point to all of this is: FUN. I agree with the philosophy. The fact that you believe otherwise shows that you're not in touch with what's really going on on this side of the debate.
...And I would argue that it's not the "last ~5%" like you think it is... It's a full change in the entire 100% of your diving. It's a completely different experience, albeit in the same environment.
I would analogize it again to driving a 4wd truck to a Camry. Look, even on regular roads, the two are completely different experiences. Sure, it's got to do with the ~5% of the off-roading that someone might do, but that's not where the experience starts or stops.
...And I'm telling you, I don't dive tech (I don't 4-wheel). I dive a bp/wing with a single AL80, a wetsuit, and at recreational dive depths. I find the characteristics of the rig (the bed of the truck, the ability to tow the boat and pull it up the wet ramp at the landing, the luxurious ride that I get out of the long wheelbase, the inherent safety that I get out of a large vehicle, the ability to carry 6 passengers with wet gear) advantage enough to prefer it to a Camry (off the shelf BC).
Now here's the funny thing about that analogy: I've compared a Camry to a large, 4wd truck... Comparing the "off the shelf" BC to the Camry, and the 4wd truck to the bp/wing. Of course, those of us who have driven both know that there is value in the simplicity of the Camry; that is, it handles better, is easier and more fun to drive, and gets better fuel economy than the large truck. In other words, the Camry offers something over the truck: Performance. What if the truck offered better performance? What if IT was simpler, with better fuel economy, and was easier and more fun to drive? What if the truck was priced the same as the Camry (or close, depending on features)? Of course, logical people would begin questioning why anyone would even bother with the Camry. And that's how I see the bp/wing vs "off the shelf" BC's... The bp/wing is not only more functional and simpler, but offers better performance as well. Why bother with the Camry of dive gear?
Saying that a bp/wing is only useful for an additional "~5%" of performance is shortsighted at best.
Sure, having a higher-performance model is always a great thing, but if there's a lot of room left for improvement in our skills, its not going to be a good investment for most of us.
I agree that most of the time, divers have not maxxed the performance that their gear will deliver; in other words, it's their skills that need the work, not their gear... And so it makes more sense to work on those than go out and buy new gear.
...Of course, conversely, you simply aren't going to develop the skills of horizontal trim and perfect buoyancy if you don't have the tools which support your learning. A bp/wing, a DIR-F class, and lots and lots of practice can be of great use in helping a diver to develop the skills.
Note that this isn't saying that there aren't exceptions who will benefit - - what I'm saying is that we can't ALL be the exceptions.
<snip>
What I would suggest is a basic, inexpensive (<$200) SLR camera for him to learn on, beat up, and see if he's really going to stick with the hobby.
I see the logic, and I can't say as I disagree.
However, let me point out that with that mentality, you're catering to the lowest common denominator. For example, you didn't mention that the 1%'ers out there probably will never realize that they're "1%'ers" if they are never allowed to excel past the jackets and the cheap gear and the terrible skills.
Look - everyone's always complaining that the mainstream agencies get people through scuba as quickly as possible, and by doing so instill bad habits and problems which must be unlearned later. No doubt - perfect examples of this can be seen in the type of gear that newbies are encouraged to purchase, and the fact that they're often taught literally on their knees, on the bottom of a pool. From the outset, bad habits are encouraged. Is it any wonder that the industry is in the state it's in?
Why not instead cater to the top of the class? Why not teach people the right way from the beginning? Why not encourage them to learn buoyancy and trim in the gear that will enable them to dive for the rest of their lives, at any level they choose? Heck, a bp/wing is no more complicated than a jacket BC... In fact, we've established that it's simpler; to a fault, some people say. Why "dumb down" the program? Why not teach them proper control from the outset, while they're still excited and wanting to learn and willing to dedicate themselves to excellence?
Why would you rather we cater to the masses than cater to the creme of the crop? Do you not see the danger in the falling standard - and the low quality of the education - so that the bottom of the barrel can feel nice-n-comfy in the water?
Man, this isn't about diving... This is about a whole philosophy that seems to permeate our society as of late. "Cater to the lowest common denominator" encourages only the "lowest common denominator," people. No offense to them, but the "lowest common denominator" isn't the most productive cross section of society. It's the creme of the crop that's productive, and they're the ones that need to be catered to. If the bottom of the barrel doesn't like that, then they are welcome to excel and become the creme of the crop, so that they can benefit. THAT is the basic difference between the bottom of the barrel and the creme of the crop - whether you float or sink. That's it. It's got little to do with what your life has done for you or to you, or who your daddy was, or what you were given as a child, or whether or not you were abused, or whether or not someone, somewhere owes you something.
Sorry... My point, -hh, is that you need to stop referring to newbies as those people who do not have the capacity to grasp certain concepts. Believe me, the creme of the crop will grasp it. They will take hold, and, frustrated by the rest of the "dumbing down" of society, will tenaciously strive for understanding and will excel in anything they put their mind to... Including diving.
...What you need to do, -hh, is not stand in their way with your values of, "buy cheap crap, 'cause you might not want to do this any more."
You say "do it with a $200 Tusa," and I say, "do it with an old-fashioned backplate."...
Back to the drawing board. 
(Which, interestingly, I pointed out could be rendered uneccessary through the use of skill. If I recall correctly, you argued that gear removal should be facilitated through the use of gear, contrary to your position at this point.)
