BP Wings vs BCD explanation

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-hh once bubbled...

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On one test-run, we broke the Lexan port. A full 5 inches thick, and around 16" diameter, split neatly in two like a Gingersnap cookie.

While we replaced it with a slab of 3/4" steel to finish the test, the Chief Engineer hand-carried the broken lexan to the VP of the Lexan division to have a few words about that Department's claims of "Unbreakable" :-)


-hh


Really??? You???

You replaced the plastic with steel???

I just can't imagine that.


And what did the VP of the Lexan division have to say.....

I'll bet it was something like, "Geez, all the Lexan that we've babied up until now hasn't given us a problem. We must have had more than 1000 hours MTBF!"



(Sorry, I didn't have anything real productive to add.... I just found this kinda funny.)
 
AquaBob plucks an old post and says

(Sorry, I didn't have anything real productive to add.... I just found this kinda funny.)

Steel wasn't really the right tool for the job, because it didn't allow us to use or second camera for a full orthoginal view. The right tool for the job would have been Commander Scotty's transparent aluminum, but since this project was three years before Star Trek IV debuted...


-hh
 
jplacson once bubbled...

P8,000 for a decent BC?!?!? Where??!?! Hmmm... maybe I should've gotten that over my Halcyon!!!

Rounding P8,000 to US$200, one finds that LeisurePro currently has 14 BC's (10 in stock) to choose from at that price point.




BTW, don't forget, your fins make a HUGE difference in trim weighting, Jet's WILL sway you vertical since they are negative...you have to take into consideration you fins as well when trimming.

Agreed. I learned on Jets/Rockets and once I tried other, much lighter fins, these klunkers were promptly banned to the back of the closet. IMO, they're okay if you're leg-light from a drysuit/etc because they also duplicate ankle weights. Similarly, if you only need rudders on your feet because you're being pulled along by a scooter, they do the job. But this doesn't mean that they're the best fin for everyone everwhere.


-hh
 
Jplacson,

Problem was, I had no weights to distribute! :D
Anyway, I would like to experiment with it some more, given the chance. I'll keep your tips in mind.

P8,000 for a decent BC?!?!? Where??!?! Hmmm... maybe I should've gotten that over my Halcyon!!!

That's an Aquatec, at Nautilus Dive Shop and Sports Center, Pasay Road, Makati City (02)8122848. Very tough bc that's widely used for rentals. I used it many times before I got my own, and it worked well for me. Doesnt look good though, that's why I bought a Seaquest instead. I would NEVER trade a Halcyon, if I had one, for the Aquatec! Zero "cool" points.:D There's also the Mares Vector Origin (about P9000), and a certain Dacor model (P8,000+) at Scubaworld. Beauchat I think also has a model in this price range, available at Dive Buddies and other dealers. A few years ago the Tusa Liberator (another favorite) sold for only about P6000-7000. I'm not sure how much the newer models cost now but I believe they will be in this range.

BTW, where do you dive?
 

Isnt this the same article at the start of this thread? I dont see anything about 30+ bcs tested and how they stacked up against one another!?:confused:

I believe so much has been said about your article already, but since you cited it again, let me add a few more observations:
  1. You are clearly blaming the jacket-style bc for skills problems.
  2. This is what I think is a closer approximation of the distance between the bc air cell and the weight belt on a horizontal diver. I believe the distance would not be enough to push the diver vertical except in an extreme situation of being overweighted and over-inflated. Im not a physics expert, but I believe it is wrong to assume that the center of gravity (cg)of the diver would be at the weight belt. You are assuming that the human body is like a log, with even weight and bouyancy distribution throughout. You have to consider the cg and the cb (as you call it) of the diver without the weights and bc, which I believe will vary from person to person and is very difficult to determine.
    [/list=1]

    IMHO, your article is full of misinformation.
 
Matthew once bubbled...


This is what I think is a closer approximation of the distance between the bc air cell and the weight belt on a horizontal diver...Im not a physics expert, but I believe it is wrong to assume that the center of gravity (cg) of the diver would be at the weight belt.


Matt, thanks for that representation.

And for the CG, anthropometrically, the centroid ("cg") of the human body is just above the belly button (up/down), centered (left/right) and slightly more than halfway deep (front/back): since the average 50th percentile fit male is ~9" thick measured at the thorax, this would be ~5" deep.

When we're diving, the center of gravity can shift, based on what we're wearing, and buoyancy elements due to variations in density, including of different body tissues (example: head is more dense than some others; fat vs. muscles vs. bone, etc). This gets modified again by the dive gear we're wearing (wetsuit, etc), and besides the weightbelt, we also have to consider the ~2lbs of brass in the body of the first stage that's located right behind the head, particularly since we can shift the entire tank assembly's location relative to where the BC (or BP/W) is fitted onto the body.


-hh
 
Matthew once bubbled...


Isnt this the same article at the start of this thread?

Yes.


I dont see anything about 30+ bcs tested and how they stacked up against one another!?

Well, you're right in that I actually said, "More than 130 dives with countless different BC's..."

I actually know that it was really something like 32 or 34 different BCs, because I was there. :)


You are clearly blaming the jacket-style bc for skills problems.

Okay, would you like to tell me what skill it is that enables you to trim yourself properly? I'm not talking about the "skill" of putting some weights in your trim pockets... That's not skill; that's equipment configuration. What exactly do YOU do to trim yourself using skill? "Think heavy thoughts?" "Contstrict the blood vessels in your feet to push the blood up towards your head?" C'mon, man...

Now, if you're claiming that you keep yourself "trimmed" by finning... Then I don't think it's ME that has the skill issues.


[*]This is what I think is a closer approximation of the distance between the bc air cell and the weight belt on a horizontal diver.

D@mn... Nice picture. You shoulda drawn the ones for my article. :)

I do have one issue with it... How did the diver manage to get his center of gravity way down beneath him like that?

...And when placing the center of buoyancy, did you forget that the BC bladder goes up and behind the diver as well? You can't forget that. And did you forget that the diver's got lungs? They're waaay up on his upper torso, my friend, and definitely make his upper body lighter than what you've pictured.


I believe the distance would not be enough to push the diver vertical except in an extreme situation of being overweighted and over-inflated.

Well, it depends... I agree with you that the diver you picture should have no problem "finning" to keep himself horizontal in the water column... The forces at work simply aren't that great. Add lots of air to his BC and lots of weight on his belt (hey... Looks like your diver is wearing something like 30 pounds of lead... You sure 'bout that?) and the increased forces can be more of an issue.

...But assuming that your picture is wrong and that the diver isn't wearing but a little weight and thus using little air in his BC... The forces shouldn't be impossible to overcome by finning.

Now, if he stops finning... Even if the forces aren't that great, his body will tend to float into a head-up position... So no, he's not properly trimmed.

...And why is that important? Well... A diver who's trim-neutral can truly relax in the water... He doesn't have to waste energy and air working and finning and keeping himself properly situated. Furthermore, when that diver is diving in an environment that's sensitive to excess finning... Say, over a coral bed or over a particularly silty bottom... There's huge advantages to being properly trimmed.

...Which is why so many penetration divers, like cavers and wreckers, make such a big deal about bp/wings... Because they're neutrally trimmed.


Im not a physics expert, but I believe it is wrong to assume that the center of gravity (cg)of the diver would be at the weight belt. You are assuming that the human body is like a log, with even weight and bouyancy distribution throughout. You have to consider the cg and the cb (as you call it) of the diver without the weights and bc, which I believe will vary from person to person and is very difficult to determine.

You're right that it varies from person to person, but not by much.

It's easy to establish your CofG... Lay your body across a stool, and then flex your body and arch your back so that you go into a skydiver "freefall" position. Balance yourself in this position on top of a stool. Where you place the stool underneath of your pelvis is where your center of gravity is. This point varies from person to person, but not by much... And yes, it's somewhere near the "weight belt" line.

Yor center of buoyancy is a whole other issue... And would be in the same place if it weren't for your lungs, which are a couple of huge sacks of air that take up a good portion of your torso. They can have a buoyancy swing from something like zero to +9 pounds of buoyancy, depending on how much "breath" you have in them. Those that dive with a bp/wing know that the big metal plate across the back helps to counter this heavy buoyancy, which helps to bring the center of buoyancy back near the center of gravity... So that there's less tendency for the difference between the two to place the diver in a postion where he has to expend energy constantly in order to stay properly situated.

Notice, by the way, that while in this position, you can adjust your body's "angle of attack" by bending your knees. This is how DIR divers are trained to adjust their "angle of attack"... By bending their knees to adjust for trim. This explains why they also like big, wide, heavy, stiff fins. :)


IMHO, your article is full of misinformation.

Sorry you feel that way. My theories which I expressed on that page were a very simplified explanation... Based on what I've learned from three PADI classes, 130 specific "testing" dives, 250 "other" dives, several research books, and a GUE class specifically aimed at buoyancy and trim control, taught by the agency known for it's expertise in that field.

What, exactly, are your theories, and what sort of research have you done to back them up?
 
SeaJay once bubbled...

D@mn... Nice picture. You shoulda drawn the ones for my article. :)

I do have one issue with it... How did the diver manage to get his center of gravity way down beneath him like that?

This is a common nomenclature confusion/error: the Center of Gravity ("CG") is ofen expressed as a vertical line which extends from the body's Centriod (its proper X, Y, Z center of mass) all the way to the center of the Earth.

So if we assume the orange dot is the diver's centroid, then yes, its is misplaced along the vertical (Y) axis: it should be raised up to be within the diver's body

This does not mean, however, that the orange line that's with the dot is incorrectly located...its pretty close, and close enough for our needs here, since Y axis location isn't relevent to the Overturning Moment (Torque) of the axis of trim (head vs. heels) that's being discussed.



...And when placing the center of buoyancy, did you forget that the BC bladder goes up and behind the diver as well?

For some designs, true...but we could go nitpick the BP/W illustrations the same way.

In any event, its not really that important, because just like the above, such changes in the Y axis are of zero consequence for the axis of trim that's being discussed.

Note: what would make a difference is if making the bag higher results in a shift of the CP horizontally (left or right).


And did you forget that the diver's got lungs?


As a derivative work from your illustrations, you might be asking the wrong person :D

In my assessment, the CG & CP locations on Matt's picture are generally correct, particularly since the "with gear" CG has not been moved an appreciable distance from the known "naked body" Centriod location.



Now, if he stops finning... Even if the forces aren't that great, his body will tend to float into a head-up position... So no, he's not properly trimmed.


The problem is that in order to attain perfect trim, the diver has to stop breathing too.

What this all really boils down to is (once again) a Significance Test: is the 'misallignment' really big enough to worry about?

Take a look at the following that I slapped together (BTW, I increased the volume of the BC's bladder for you SeaJay):

http://tinyurl.com/r5nh


The physics of any "trim problem" due to CP-CG mismatch is mathmatically expressed as an Overturning Moment (torque) which is calculated by: Force * Moment Arm

To maintain trim via dynamic control, the diver creates an equal counter-torque...a zero net effect. Hand-waving is one possible way to generate the counter-torque to do this. Finning (swimming) at an angle of attack is another.

Since we have to breathe (and consume our tank's air supply), it is impossible to have a perfect alligment between the CP and CG to prevent the creation of a moment arm.

What it really comes down to is that the only thing we can do are things that make the total Torque Force smaller. Since there's two contributing variables (Force * Distance), there's only two approaches:

- Reduce the Force
- Reduce the Moment Arm (length between CP & CG)

Because the humman body's density is very close to water, the first is mostly an equipment and weighting issue...if you carry less ballast, you need less air in the BC/Wing, which results in a smaller net force.

The second is what this discussion has focused on, but only in the broadest "Product Catagory A vs. Product Catagory B". While some specific designs are good/bad, the reality is that all BC's today have degrees of adjustability, and this makes the claims of profound differences between the general Product Catagories an incorrect generalization.

The proof is in the adjustability found on all systems, as these can and are used to better allign the CP to CG to minimize the Moment Arm's length. Examples of adjustability include shoulder strap length variation (this will raise/lower the entire BC/etc assembly versus the body and change the CP's location realative to the CG), and raising/lowering the primary scuba tank relative to the BC (shifts the CG relative to the CP), or relocation of lead weights on your body and other equipment (cannister lights, etc).


Finally, one last thing to remember here is that even a large number times zero becomes zero...and with two variables, either number can be the one to become zero (or both, even though that's unnecessary).



...And why is that important? Well... A diver who's trim-neutral can truly relax in the water... He doesn't have to waste energy and air working and finning and keeping himself properly situated. Furthermore, when that diver is diving in an environment that's sensitive to excess finning... Say, over a coral bed or over a particularly silty bottom... There's huge advantages to being properly trimmed.


Sure, but common sense also needs to prevail: there's generally no justification to go chasing after the last 1% for the average recreational diver. For example, what is the measurable difference in overall dive performance between swimming along with his fins thrust being perfectly horizontal (0 degrees) versus +/- 1 degree angle of attack?

While we can all agree that novices swimming along at 45 degree angles need a lot of help, basic trigonometry will tell us what the trade-off in thrust is per LBf-FT of trim-maintaining torque.


-hh
 
Very nice picture.

I still think that the CofG would be 2 or 3 inches lower on the body... If you balance yourself atop a stool or chair in a "skydiver" position, you'll see that the human body's CofG is actually right around the pelvis - not at the bellybutton as you've described. It would be pulled down further by lead ballast, too... And that diver's wearing quite a bit of it.

Ditto goes for the CofB... I think your picture accurately shows the CofB on this diver with no air in his lungs (and quite a bit of air in his BC)... But that a good breath would bring it down and towards the diver's head another 4" or so. At least. The average adult's lungs can affect bouyancy by as much as 9 lbs.

In all, though... I think your pictures still show, even if erred on the conservative side, what sort of force a jacket diver must counteract in order to stay horizontal in the water. You call it "not such a big deal" and go on to tell me that 1% doesn't matter.

Well... Your pictures don't show "1%." They show a force which could be sizable... Enough to effect gas supply... And enough to have to keep finning to stay properly positioned.

...And I still think that reality's a bit worse than you're showing it.

...But why deal with any "Torque Force" at all, when there are systems out there that simply do a better job at keeping you trimmed?
 
SeaJay once bubbled...


Okay, would you like to tell me what skill it is that enables you to trim yourself properly? I'm not talking about the "skill" of putting some weights in your trim pockets... That's not skill; that's equipment configuration. What exactly do YOU do to trim yourself using skill? "Think heavy thoughts?" "Contstrict the blood vessels in your feet to push the blood up towards your head?" C'mon, man...

Now, if you're claiming that you keep yourself "trimmed" by finning... Then I don't think it's ME that has the skill issues.

I am not talking of trim problems. I am contesting your often repeated statement that "jacket-style BC's do not allow a diver to easily stay in this position without constantly swimming or "sculling" with the hands and feet."

I regularly see this being proven wrong, Seajay, by perhaps more than a thousand divers to date. That includes myself when I only had about 20+ dives, wearing a rental Tusa Imprex bc, 3/2 mm wetsuit, 8 lbs. on the waist, no trim weights anywhere. And I don't fin to keep my position.

Let me repeat what I said a few posts back since your memory doesnt seem to go that far back:
"Let me point out that problems in maintaining UW position/balance is not always a trim problem. It rarely is, especially in a country like the Philippines where almost all diving is done with thin wetsuits, single aluminum 80 tanks and very little weight. It is usually just a newbie problem (usually due to wearing too much weight and consequently, having too much air in the bc thus pushing the diver into a vertical position) which never fails to resolve after gaining a few more dives, especially with instructor intervention. It is the resolution of problems like this that result to significant improvements in air consumption. xxx
I don't believe its even an issue since here, divers using trim weights seem to be the exception. I have never seen ankle weights on tank valves. Some, including myself, bother with the placement of weights on the belt and nothing else. But I assure you that we can effortlessly maintain a horizontal position or any position we desire."

Imagine, Seajay, a diver in a 45 degree angle. What would happen if he sculls with the hands? Would he achieve a horizontal position? NO. Would sculling push his upper body/head UPward? YES. What would happen if he sculls with his feet? Would he gain a horizontal position? NO. Would he be swimming up? YES.
What then, is a diver in a 45 degree angle, who sculls with his hands and feet, trying to achieve? A horizontal position? NO. Most likely, he is trying to:

1. keep from sinking,
2. maintain his depth, or
3. maintain his 45 degree, head-up position because he is not comfortable in a horizontal position (common among new divers).

Now, would you consider this a trim issue? NO. An equipment configuration issue? NO. A skills/training deficiency? YES.

The solution? Weights on the tank valve? NO. A bp/wing set-up? NO. Learn bouyancy control? YES! Determine the correct (minimal)amount of weight? YES! Do more dives, gain more confidence and be more relaxed? YES!

Well, it depends... I agree with you that the diver you picture should have no problem "finning" to keep himself horizontal in the water column... The forces at work simply aren't that great. Add lots of air to his BC and lots of weight on his belt (hey... Looks like your diver is wearing something like 30 pounds of lead... You sure 'bout that?) and the increased forces can be more of an issue.

Yes, the forces at work aren't that great. That's why there's no need to fin to keep horizontal. Add lots of air to the bc and lots of weight on the belt (hey, those are 2 pounders, 2 on each side) and the increased forces WILL be a big issue. But WHY would I do that? We dive in warm water that very few divers, use more than 12 pounds.

I do have one issue with it... How did the diver manage to get his center of gravity way down beneath him like that?

...And when placing the center of buoyancy, did you forget that the BC bladder goes up and behind the diver as well? You can't forget that. And did you forget that the diver's got lungs? They're waaay up on his upper torso, my friend, and definitely make his upper body lighter than what you've pictured.

I was wrong in adopting your green/orange dots/arrows. As I said, I was trying to show the distance between the downward pull of the weights and the lift of the bc. And I based the shape of the bc aircell on what I believe is the shape of the majority of modern bc's. I believe the distribution of air was increased under the arms and around the waist in most modern bc designs precisely to minimize the distance we're talking about.

So you considered the lungs in your illustrations? You may have done so, but it is not apparent.

Notice, by the way, that while in this position, you can adjust your body's "angle of attack" by bending your knees. This is how DIR divers are trained to adjust their "angle of attack"... By bending their knees to adjust for trim. This explains why they also like big, wide, heavy, stiff fins.

I've been doing this long before I heard of DIR. I learned it by emulating my instructor and other divers. Its flattering to know, though, that the technique is used by the experts.

Sorry you feel that way. My theories which I expressed on that page were a very simplified explanation... Based on what I've learned from three PADI classes, 130 specific "testing" dives, 250 "other" dives, several research books, and a GUE class specifically aimed at buoyancy and trim control, taught by the agency known for it's expertise in that field.

What, exactly, are your theories, and what sort of research have you done to back them up?

I have not done any research. What I say are not theories, but are what I actually see being done around me and by myself.

You say you cannot be horizontal in a bc without sculling, finning or trimming, based on three PADI classes, 130 specific "testing" dives, 250 "other" dives, several research books, and a GUE class. I can show it can be done in one (1) dive.
 

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