BP Wings vs BCD explanation

[SeaJay]

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...
For ANY poll to be accurate one must consider what sector of the masses that is being surveyed. In this case, it'd be mostly tech divers...and that’s not a impartial poll.

Agreed. That might skew our results.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if it would be worth it anyway... If we came up with results that showed that plastic QD's were failing in statistically significant numbers, would it change anything? Likewise, if our results showed that plastic QD's weren't, would it change anything?

Would the fact that one system was proven more streamlined than another make you sell all of your gear and suddenly choose a different gear configuration?

I mean, I think the results would be interesting, but I don't think they'd be effective at "proving" one person right or wrong... And furthermore, I don't believe that it'd change anyone's opinion.

Lastly, as -hh pointed out, results - whether conclusive or not - would still be subject to what the other person saw as "statistically significant." Furthermore, simply asking the question in the poll - that is, the way it's asked - would in and of itself skew the results. I might choose that we ask, "Have you ever seen a broken QD," where he might ask, "How many hours have you dived with a broken QD?" The same people, therefore, could give different results, basically nullifying any conclusions from the poll.

I tell you, I'm happy just agreeing to disagree. Y'all say that you're all about making individual choices on what's best for you in your selection of dive gear. If that's true, then can you simply understand that I choose to dive with the same gear that my buddies dive with? I mean, I've chosen to dive with a certain group, and frankly, that was one of the reasons... Because we're all on the same page. I respect the fact that you choose another method, and you have your belief system which supports your choices. I do too. Can we not coexist this way?

DIR isn't for everyone, folks... And that statement doesn't imply one style is better than another... Although I have my favorite way of diving, and y'all know what that is.

Ask me why I choose no plastic parts, and I'll tell you. I understand that you don't believe that they cause the problems that I cite, but my experiences have supported my beliefs. I expect that if I ask why you choose those things, you have your reasons.

I would like to stop arguing about it, that's for sure.

But please understand that if you ask me, I'm going to shoot straight and tell you my beliefs. My reasons are based on my education and my experience, which no doubt is different from your own. That doesn't make me wrong or right, and it doesn't make you wrong or right either.

...And an attempt to prove one wrong or right only means that you're more concerned about being wrong or right than being tolerant. Or that you're more concerned about being wrong or right than "just diving.

 

[SeaJay]

paulwlee once bubbled...

As for the weight, you may have a hard time believing it, (you seem to question me on this again and again) but we need a lot of insulation to dive the 45~55 degree water around here.

Sorry, man... I don't mean to come off that way.

It's not that I can't believe it... I'm just asking what your instructor said about it. I wanted to know if he helped you to find the right balance point.

...But I'd just like to point out from our previous conversation: Going with a pair of E7's, a six pound plate and a pair of Jets would decrease your lead requirement from 30 pounds to 16. You had a great point when you said that an eight pound plate would decrease it even more. And I'm not even considering the extra pound in a manifold.

But heck, even if you were just sticking with singles, you could put in there a weighted STA and drop another couple of pounds.

Heck, add an LP steel tank, and they fall even lower. Of course, there's the issue of ditchability like we talked about... But if you're diving neutral in the first place, then have your redundant buoyancy source in your drysuit...

...And notice that I did not include "ankle weights clipped to the valve." I have a hard time believing that a GUE instructor would suggest something like that... Or even suggest diving with something other than a bp/wing, especially in your case, for the type of diving you're doing.

But my point was to bring it to your instructor. I can't give any advice because 1. I am not there. 2. I am not an instructor. These were just ideas that you could bring to the correct qualified person.

30 pounds is a lot of weight, my man... And I just wanted to know what your instructor had recommended.

 

[jplacson]

Weighted STA can hit 6# so you can bring your total non-ditchable up to 12# ... even more so if you use trim pockets... which can add 5# or so... that's if you dive singles and use more than 20# total lead.

For doubles, why not get V-weights?

I know a few DIR divers who prefer to be slightly (2-4#) overweighted for stability in rough waters.

But for OW use, it's really, really great having the absolute minimum amount of total lead needed.

I really used the end of one dive to get my weighting right. I'm down to a little under 4# total.

If you're carrying a lot of lead... try to keep your ditchable weight down to a minimum to prevent uncontrolled ascents in an emergency, or in case of accidental ditching. I think 8-10# ditchable should be enough... everything else should be there to keep you neutral. A 6# SS + a 6# STA + 5# trim should be more than enough non-ditchable lead for anyone. 8-11# v-weights for doubles. The great thing about non-ditchable weight is that it's a lot more stable than a weight belt, it's also easier on your hips, reduces clutter, and if you really think about it, proper weighting can make your rig stronger:

-instead of using 'light-weight' plastic clips/connectors, go for metal... added weight, added strength, less weight on your belt/integrated system

-use metal cam buckles over plastic ones as well... this got like 1/2# of ...but still, it helps strengthen my rig, while removing useless lead.

 

[SimonN]

ew1usnr once bubbled...
I still think that the air shift is more dramatic when you roll to the side with wings, than it is if you are wearing a Scubapro stab jacket. The jacket holds the air closer to the body.

And what does holding the air closer to the body mean? SFA. The wing holds the air closer to the tanks. What does that mean? Loads!

I dived twins with a Scubapro stab/jacket for a while. The air shift may be more dramatic with wings, i.e. you hear the air moving, but it does not cause you to roll. You roll around like a rolling thing when using a stab/jacket with twins. Try it.

You are much more stable in the water with a wing fullstop/period/end of story.

Using an SS backplate allows you to achieve horizontal trim more easily.

If you spend hours floating on the surface (e.g. your avg active PADI/SSI/NAUI instructor) then granted a stab/jacket may well be better - they are very good for this. In water though, wings kick arse.

Plastic connectors... sure, use them. They probably won't break, but..

a) You do not need them with a properly set up harness

b) They might still break and one piece harness will not.

It's all about aiming for perfection rather than just making do.

Do what you want though, I care not.

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...
Problem with that SeaJay is that this message board is slanted with tech divers who prefer BP's & wings and not your standard, 'off the shelf' recreational diver who reads Rodale's Scuba Diving magazine which do not partake in 'technical' diving and finds that jacket BC's fulfill all their needs.

I suppose I am a tech diver (trimix certed, my last dive, 3 days ago, was to 76.8M etc), but most of my diving is still recreational - around 75% of it, so I do around 75 dives a year that are no deco recreational dives - possibly more than most recreational only divers.

Get a wing, they are loads better fullstop/period/end of story.

Ignore almost anything you read in dive magazine reviews - it's generally backscratching and/or revenue generating BS.

jplacson once bubbled...
I know a few DIR divers who prefer to be slightly (2-4#) overweighted for stability in rough waters.

Out of interest, what makes them DIR?

 

[jplacson]

Well, afaik, they are the group that gives DIR-F classes and GUE classes. They profess DIR methods of diving, and most of the diving community points their way if you wanna go the DIR path.

I can't really speak for their personal life, if they live healthy or exercise or whatever... but they are some of the (if the top) cave divers here.

I honestly don't know what makes a diver DIR. I've never taken a DIR-F class, and I don't really have any intentions to do so in the near future.

From the stuff I've read about DIR on the net, and on the boards... they seem to be DIR. As far as reputation goes, they seem to be DIR. As far as gear config, philosophies, and general practices, they seem to be DIR. So, afaik, they are DIR.

I know the DIR way is 100% or nothing at all... and that there's no such thing as 50% DIR... so I really wouldn't be the best judge of a DIR diver or not... but these are the guys I go to to ask about the DIR way of diving, tips, etc...

Whether or not the info they give me is compliant with DIR philosophies... these guys appear to me, to be DIR. That's as much as I know.

 

[paulwlee]

SeaJay once bubbled...

...But I'd just like to point out from our previous conversation: Going with a pair of E7's, a six pound plate and a pair of Jets would decrease your lead requirement from 30 pounds to 16.

Actually, when I'm talking about 30lbs I'm talking about my total weight requirement for using a single AL80, including weight belt, backplate and everything else. Right now it's the weight belt and SS backplate, which means I am wearing 24lbs on the belt.

With the E7 100, I will need 5.3lbs less, and I can probably manage to drop 6lbs, so I'll go to a 18lb belt. If I do get a canister light, I'll be going for a Proteus 3 or 6, with -2 or -3lb buoyancy, and the belt will drop to 15 or 16lbs.

Of course, if I go doubles with the E7 100, with the manifold/bands and the -1.3lb empty buoyancy of another tank, I can maybe drop another 5lbs, bring the belt down to 10lbs.
Now that would be sweeet!!
With doubles I could also get V-weights and get rid of the belt completely, but maybe I'll find that I prefer to distribute my weight a little. We'll see.

As for the balance point, if I am not able to get balanced comfortably with the E7, then I'll probably look at ACB's or trim pockets. I think if I am able to move my weightbelt up a little it would be fine, but I'm already at the limit because the belt is sitting just below my waist strap.

 

[ew1usnr]

SimonN once bubbled...
And what does holding the air closer to the body mean?

It means that the air does not move as far when it shifts. Thus, the shift is less dramatic.

I dived twins with a Scubapro stab/jacket for a while. Try it. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't want to. I use a backplate/ wings when I dive my twin 100's, and prefer a stab jacket (see photo) when using a single 80.

You are much more stable in the water with a wing fullstop/period/end of story. [/QUOTE]

True. That is important when swimming with big double tanks. It is easier to just stay in the horizontal with doubles than to try rolling from side to side because the weight of the doubles throws your balance off so much. But, stability comes at the price of maneuverability when using wings with a single tank. The stab jacket allows easier rolling from side to side. That's the whole point. What some people see as "un-stable", I see as less rigid and confining.

Using an SS backplate allows you to achieve horizontal trim more easily. [/QUOTE]
True. If you want to stay horizontaly trimmed. The stab jacket has a flow-through, wrap around design that allows easy rotation in any direction. That is the whole point.

If you spend hours floating on the surface then granted a stab/jacket may well be better, they are very good for this. [/QUOTE]

True. It's like sitting in an easy chair.

Get a wing, they are loads better fullstop/period/end of story. [/QUOTE]

It depends. All of the above is predicated on a diver not swimming overweighted so that he needs only minimal air in the BC. An overweighted diver would put too much air in the jacket to counteract the excess weight. The inflated jacket would tilt his trim vertical. If the weight were on a belt, it would pull the diver vertical even if he were wearing wings. Either way, don't swim overweighted and count on the BC as a crutch to correct the situation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's probably a mistake to compare ONLY a bp/wing to a jacket. While I would still pick the bp/wing I could pull off a dive with either one. I could weight muself to manage horizontal trim. And, BTW, in the bp/wing I am far more comfortable at the surface when teaching (not that we stay there long) in the bp/wing.

The dramatic diference comes in when you compare the whole equipment configuration. Conventional bc's really don't give you a good place to clip off a light or SPG. The front of your body is clutered with stuff that's just in the way. Most divers using a jacket have a consol on a long hose that wraps around. Often it just dangles but even if it's clipped or on a retractor the hose is way to long. You end up with a big sloppy loop of hose. Just thumb through some pictures to see what I mean. The alternate (while you can put it around your neck if you want) is often on a long hose and, again, often hanging lose. Also, again, even when clipped there's that unsightly long loop of hose. But really I see more alternates and consols just hanging than anything else. The devices used to clip alternates to the bc usually come lose anyway since it must be easy for the reg to come out.

The entire setup does result in lots of drag, danglies and snag hazards and inefficient nearly non functional air sharing procedures. This big mess of hose loops moving through the water is truely a sight. Add to this the slates, lights and other toys that divers clip to the many, though, ill placed rings that are put on some of these bc's and you have something that looks much like a Christmas tree.

There are ways to clean this mess up a little but this is the configuration most use and were taught to use. Some efforts o clean it up, like getting rid of a hose by using an alternate that's integrated with the bc inflator, yeild a really poor performing non-solution. One problem is that the most common equipment failure that I see is a stuck inflator. Once you disconnect it you also lose your alternate. That is if you're even able to disconnect it quick enough given the size and shape. You don't need to get rid of the hose, just make it the right length and put in a good place and there won't be a problem.

When you compare the entire configuration and the messed up procedures that go with it to a clean streamlined "Hogarthian" configuration the difference is dramatic. No hoses stick out away from the body. No lights or other toys dandle in strange places. backup lights are on the harness ansecured at both ends so they're invisable until needed. They're protected and easily deployed. If you chose to add a canister light (a really good idea) the harness provides a place to put it, ahere the conventiona; bc does not. The harness also provides a place to clip the SPG. You put it on your left hip with a hose just long enough to get it there. It's clean, out of the way and easy to get when you need it. You skip the clumsy consol because there's no reason for a depth gauge to be on the end of a HP hose. You put it on your wrist where you can see it without changing position.

If the only change you're going to make is the bp/wing don't bother but if you clean everything up you'll see a big difference.

 

[jplacson]

I have to disagree regarding the air movement in a stab jacket... air trapping in a stab jacket is horrible compared to a wing... this in turn causes a diver to usually wear more weight than needed. Air usually gets trapped in the forward cells, the parts under the arms which wrap around the diver... so, it MAY be easier to roll around in a stab jacket if you wear a lot of weight, I lvoe my BP wing... gives me a lot more range of movement... it's almost totally deflated at depth, so rolling around and playing isn't a problem you may have to 'roll around' just to get all the air in an area to dump it properly.

I do, however, feel that wings need more practice to use than a jacket BC... specially for beginner divers.

Jackets do have their good points... they really are easier to float with on the surface, specially if the diver doesn't know much about trim weighting. They are also a lot easier to adjust....just tug the straps.

But I do prefer the feeling of a BP... like I said before, my reasons for choosing a BP are more for comfort than 'performance' since I hated the 'winter jacket' feeling.

But I do know that a wing isn't for everyone... try one if you can, if you don't like it... you don't have to buy one!

 

[ew1usnr]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Conventional bc's really don't give you a good place to clip off a light or SPG.

It's true that the front of my stab jacket is not lined with rows of D-rings. That's why I have two D-rings attached with a big hose-clamp to either side of the base of my tank. I reach around and behind to clip off stuff. That is more out of the way and less of a danglie than if something were clipped to D-rings on front. As for the gauge or console, all you need is one place to clip it to. That's easy enough to find. I put a D-ring on the waist strap. You can even just feed the gauge and hose under the shoulder opening to keep it in front of you. (I say shoulder opening rather than shoulder strap, because the stab jacket does't have a harness or shoulder straps. That's another point of the stab jacket, keep it simple. )