BP/W with octo on inflator

[CompuDude]

As long as the AIRII serves me well, I'll continue using it, the one less hose feature is a benefeit that some may not want to see, tech diving is another theme, but for for rec diving is perfectly OK.
Mine is installed in a wing, so there's no diference when instaling it on a wing or a jacket style BC, heck, it can be installed in a horse collar if you want to.

The transmiter eliminates another hose, but until I find a reliable enough transmiter, I'll stick with the SPG.
A few yrs back, when I used the transmiter, my reg only had 2 hoses, that in my opinion is a great advantage.
Now my reg only have 3 hoses, and looking foward to find a reliable transmiter so I can switch back to 2 hoses.

My SmarTEC wasn't cheap, but it's been reliable. Worth looking into, if you're looking for a reliable transmitter. YMMV.

 

[DiveTub]

necessarily a death trap, however they are *clearly* not an optimal solution and I cannot fathom why anyone would ever jump into the water with less than optimal gear, especially when the alternatives are less expensive, easier to maintain, and more reliable.

I still don’t get your angst against the AIR2. Why are they "*clearly* not an optimal solution"?

The things work, I would say conservative Hundreds of thousands of dives are conducted with Air2's every year, yet I have been scouring the internet and still can't find a single death attributed to their use :06:

Look each to their own Go be a tech diver and use your tech rig for shallow diving, but stop putting down a piece of kit that has been around for along time and has been refined to a point where in the event of an emergency OOA situation you and your buddy can utilize it to get you both softly to the surface

Cheers
Chris

 

[*Floater*]

I don't get this part. I have been one of a few independent divers on our board. Why do you think you have to use Air 2 as an one of reg in an independent set up. We are talking about the sing wing, not double wing here. Once I was only using SP Knighthawk, I used to use two AL80 as an independant doubles. The Air 2 didn't need to be used as other main 2nd stage....

The point was that's it's not good enough to be used as a primary, and I want my backup to have that capability for rec independents use, but for other people, and for pure single tank rec diving maybe the air2 is a good idea. I can certainly see the attraction. Maybe down the road when I have pretty much most of the other important scuba gear and training I want, I'll then try the air2 and transmitter as well, but right now they are the last things on my list.

 

[Hoosier]

The point was that's it's not good enough to be used as a primary,

Oh~~ I see...

I wasn't sure why you were saying Air 2 as a primary usage. It is just octo, nothing more than that....... No offense... you know that

BTW, the evolve 40lb will be a good choice for AL 80 independant double at the resort place. What brand of double straps are you using for the independent double? Are you simply using DSS rig for that?

 

[Mandy3206]

My SmarTEC wasn't cheap, but it's been reliable. Worth looking into, if you're looking for a reliable transmitter. YMMV.

Got a link that I can see?

Allways looking for good gear!

Thanks

 

[*Floater*]

BTW, the evolve 40lb will be a good choice for AL 80 independant double at the resort place. What brand of double straps are you using for the independent double? Are you simply using DSS rig for that?

I have the DSS plate and wing which both have slots or windows for independent doubles (take a look at the plate on their site). You can just use regular cam straps to attach the tanks. The straps pull the tanks so that they are against each other which increases their stability. I've only done 16 dives like that but so far it's worked perfectly.

 

[Twomixdiver]

I was Decking on a recreational dive boat the other day, of the 16 people on the boat 12 of them had Air2's on their rigs... Might be time for that second look eyebrow

Cheers
Chris

What I'd like to know is how many divershops, resorts, or liveaboards, use the air2's as part as their rental gear. Now this will tell you how the AIR2 stacks up in terms of serviceability, dollar value, and real world reliability.

I know of no scuba gear that will function flawlessly forever. If you discover your AIR2 is malfunctioning just before your dive, your BCD has also malfunctioned. If you find that your BCD has a leak, your regulator is now short an octopus.

 

[DiveTub]

What I'd like to know is how many divershops, resorts, or liveaboards, use the air2's as part as their rental gear. Now this will tell you how the AIR2 stacks up in terms of serviceability, dollar value, and real world reliability.

The reason you don't see Air2's on hire gear is clear from your previous post, they are more expensive than a standard second stage. From the amount of travel I have done it seems to me the majority of Dive Shops are using the cheapest regs and Occys they can get their hands on. These cheap arse second stages IMHO breath way worse than pretty much all the Air2's on the market but when it comes to hire gear cheaper is better. Most LDS's cant afford to be putting topline Regs into Hire let alone splashing out on Air2's.

I know of no scuba gear that will function flawlessly forever. If you discover your AIR2 is malfunctioning just before your dive, your BCD has also malfunctioned. If you find that your BCD has a leak, your regulator is now short an octopus.

Always good to do a full pre-dive check before getting on the boat, would you not agree ?

Cheers
Chris

 

[Soggy]

Since this thread has gone around in circles, I'm going to try to present this in a different way...

Facts:

• In the event that the inflator need to be disconnected (has happened to me 4 times), you lose your backup regulator.
• Since AIR2s combine two devices into one, thus are more complex in design and therefore more prone to failure.
• Due to the small size of the diaphragm and required detuning to prevent the device from freeflowing, they breathe much more poorly than even the worst traditional 2nd stage. I almost put this under observations, but the physics of the device make it impossible to be a high performing regulator.
• It elminates a hose

Observations:

• OOG events can be complicated by using an AIR2, however, use of the rear dump can alleviate that problem. This, however, requires proper trim during the ascent which is difficult without a long hose. Given the average skill level of divers I have observed in the water, this can lead to runaway ascents since in order to dump gas one must remove the reg from your mouth. Please don't bother challenging this one with "I've got a pull dump." I believe there *have* been deaths as a result of those pieces of garbage breaking off causing total buoyancy failures.
• Regarding streamlining: I challenge anyone to explain to me how an AIR 2 is more streamlined than a well-setup bungeed backup regulator configuration. If it is more streamlined, it is only by a few square inches which is hardly an amount of surface area that will make any dent in your SAC or possibility of entanglement. What imperceptible added benefit there is to streamlining is lost by the added weight of the device and the use of a longer than necessary corrugated hose, both of which cause it to hang lower than a traditional inflator on a 12-14" corrugated hose.
  
  Someone, please demonstrate to me how an AIR2 is more streamlined than this or how the removal of the LP hose reduces my entanglement risk (my bungeed backup is actually now closer to my body than in this picture):
  
  

Other comments:

• I don't think anyone would venture to say that the AIR2 reg quality is good enough for a primary regulator. Do you really want to be breathing off of a low-quality, poor performing regulator when you are in the middle of a gas sharing episode and may have to fight a current to get back to an upline?

To recap, I count 4 cons, 1 misconstrued pro that is actually has no net change (streamlining), and 1 weak, but somewhat legitimate pro (the removal of a low pressure hose). That is why they are not optimal. Did I miss anything?

 

[DiveTub]

Hey Soggy
You just will not let this one go will you.
WOB of many of the Air2's on the market are better than many Cheap Second stages, having breathed both the ScubaPro Air2 and the Zeagle/Apeks Octo+ at 165ft (withair, not trimix) I can tell you right now they deliver plenty of air for a recreational OOA situation. As for your other points it is clear you have not used any type of Air2 before as you are incorrect on many of your observations.

In the event that the inflator need to be disconnected (has happened to me 4 times), you lose your backup regulator.

I would suggest you look long and close at the service intervals of your gear, 1500 dives and I have never had an inflator fail...

Anyway you would do same as you would if your normal inflator failed, you abort the dive, chances of both your inflator failing and your buddy running out of gas is kinda remote would you not think? as this is recreational diving you can always perform a CESA.

[*]Since AIR2s combine two devices into one, thus are more complex in design and therefore more prone to failure.

The Zeagle Octo+ has two complete halves to it, the inflator and reguator do not interconnect. And once you have had one apart you soon see they are no more complex than a inflator and a Second Stage.

[*]Due to the small size of the diaphragm and required detuning to prevent the device from freeflowing,

The size of the diaphragm has very little to do with the WOB of a second stage. Can you please explain why it is required to Detune the Air2's second stage anymore or less than you would a traditional Second stage? This is just plain wrong....

they breathe much more poorly than even the worst traditional 2nd stage. I almost put this under observations, but the physics of the device make it impossible to be a high performing regulator.

having breathed them to 165ft, far beyond the depth of recreational diving I would suggest you try it before bagging it, and also look at the WOB charts for Air2's they are pretty damn good actually, oh and by . And in fact the Air2 has a much better work of breathing than many traditional second stages

[*]OOG events can be complicated by using an AIR2, however, use of the rear dump can alleviate that problem. This, however, requires proper trim during the ascent which is difficult without a long hose.

This is not correct, you can vent gas from your bladder through the Apeks/Zeagle as you are breathing off it. Or for the ScubaPro Air2 you just use another dump.

Given the average skill level of divers I have observed in the water, this can lead to runaway ascents since in order to dump gas one must remove the reg from your mouth.

IN some Air2's such as Apeks and Zeagle you DO NOT need to remove the Air2 from your mouth to vent air from your bladder

Please don't bother challenging this one with "I've got a pull dump." I believe there *have* been deaths as a result of those pieces of garbage breaking off causing total buoyancy failures.

Unless you can show written documentation of a death caused by an Air2 or a pull shoulder dump in a OOA situation please do not assume or post such.
If a second shoulder dump is "a piece of garbage" why do the majority of Recreational BCD's have them?

[*]Regarding streamlining: I challenge anyone to explain to me how an AIR 2 is more streamlined than a well-setup bungeed backup regulator configuration. If it is more streamlined, it is only by a few square inches which is hardly an amount of surface area that will make any dent in your SAC or possibility of entanglement.
What imperceptible added benefit there is to streamlining is lost by the added weight of the device and the use of a longer than necessary corrugated hose, both of which cause it to hang lower than a traditional inflator on a 12-14" corrugated hose.

Streamlining is not the issue, its just the removal of a hose and a second stage, to me and those that use the Air2 thats a good thing

Other comments:

• I don't think anyone would venture to say that the AIR2 reg quality is good enough for a primary regulator. Do you really want to be breathing off of a low-quality, poor performing regulator when you are in the middle of a gas sharing episode and may have to fight a current to get back to an upline?

The Air2 is middle of the road in WOB and is definalty much better to breath off than many cheap Second stages used on Hire Gear

Now lets call it a day, each to their own, the Air2 was built to satisfy recreational divers that wanted to remove a hose from their kit, they work and so far you have not given any argument to say that don't do the job they where designed to do.

Cheers
Chris