BP/W for Beginner?

[Bob DBF]

Being new to SCUBA a student can learn on any type gear he is using, assuming the instructor can teach.

I learned with no BC, only a Mae West (CO2 or oral inflation) that was used for emergencies for surface floatation. I went to a wing because I wanted to return to the stability, simplicity, and feel of the old school tank harness.

An experienced diver can dive any rig and look good, it's all a matter of what you prefer to dive.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[LowDrag]

There is nothing different or difficult about a backplate rig, and there is no reason for you not to get one if you like.

If you get one that is unassembled, as in you have a roll of webbing and a bag of D-rings, then you need to learn to set it up. That isn't hard, though.

>And if BP/W is so much better, why is there such a push to sell jacket bcds?

I have no idea. I have heard some crazy stuff about backplates, like you have to be "brainwashed" to think they are better. Well, I had a top-of-the-like jacket BCD from a major manufacturer, and dumped it after trying a dive buddy's backplate rig once. YMMV.

Same here for me. I was invited to the pool for some training by my LDS owner. He let me try his Hollis BP&W and I fell in love with it right from the start. No issues with trim and no issues with run away ascents. I put up my "top-of-the-like jacket BCD from a major manufacturer" for sale the next day. Now just if it would find someone that is a died hard jacket BCD person... Oh and, my wife went to a BP&W also. She loves hers too.

I have been closely involved with the retail decisions about materials with two different shops, and I think I can tell you some reasons why a shop might or might not push jacket BCDs (or really anything).

1. Depending upon where you live and what kind of diving is done there, the shop might believe that BP/Ws will not be big sellers. They do not want to have unsold inventory on hand. (I can absolutely guarantee that this is the primary reason in my area.)

2. Some of the most popular BP/W makers require that shops enter into a contract with them that requires an initial minimum order and a minimum annual purchase of their products. Both shops I have worked with will not sell certain brands because they cannot make such a commitment.

3. Most shops have contracts with certain vendors as described above. They need to sell a certain amount of $$$ for those vendors. Many of the most popular vendors either do not make BP/Ws or they make one that people don't really want. If they enter into a contract for BP/Ws with a vendor that does not have a high minimum sales requirement (and there are some), every BP/W they would sell from that company is something they are not selling for the companies with which they have the minimum sales contracts.

4. Even if a company is easily meeting minimum sales quotas for a vendor, there is an incentive to sell more, because the company will charge lower wholesale prices for higher volumes of sales. That even goes for specific models of equipment. The shop I used to work for makes a HUGE push to get customers to purchase a specific BCD, a specific regulator set, a specific fin, a specific computer, a specific wet suit, etc. Their instructors are required to purchase and use those specific items when they instruct, and they are required to tell the students that they made those choices because as professionals they demand the best. The real reason is that that package of gear gives the shop the highest profit margin, and by increasing the volume on specific items, the profit margin is made even greater. (That is one of several reasons I no longer work for that shop.)

Damn John...what you said in your reply sings like a bad song in my head. As I was reading your reply I heard everything my previous LDS owner say that you said including his instructors. I guess that is why I don't go to that shop anymore. My new LDS owner likes that I come here and ask questions and do research then buy from him. If he doesn't have what I want he will either get it for me or he won't give me grief for buying it online.

 

[rhodges]

My wife is about to start her ow class. I let her play around in our pool with my gear to get comfortable. First she used my old scubapro knighthawk which she liked, I then asked her to try my bp/w. she liked the bp/w way better. Not as cluttered and I think she managed her buoyancy better in the bp/w, so I would say no learning curve.

 

[TSandM]

When my husband teaches private OW classes, he starts students in backplates. We have also had students who learned in other gear, and when we put them into backplates, almost universally they immediately say that they like them better.

In addition to the good list of reasons that boulderjohn lists as to why your dive shop might push other gear, there is also the matter of unfamiliarity. In my experience, shop owners and staff can be incredibly resistant to anything they don't know very much about, and many folks persist with the concept that backplate setups are only for "tech" divers, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[ams511]

I have been closely involved with the retail decisions about materials with two different shops, and I think I can tell you some reasons why a shop might or might not push jacket BCDs (or really anything).

1. Depending upon where you live and what kind of diving is done there, the shop might believe that BP/Ws will not be big sellers. They do not want to have unsold inventory on hand. (I can absolutely guarantee that this is the primary reason in my area.)

2. Some of the most popular BP/W makers require that shops enter into a contract with them that requires an initial minimum order and a minimum annual purchase of their products. Both shops I have worked with will not sell certain brands because they cannot make such a commitment.

3. Most shops have contracts with certain vendors as described above. They need to sell a certain amount of $$$ for those vendors. Many of the most popular vendors either do not make BP/Ws or they make one that people don't really want. If they enter into a contract for BP/Ws with a vendor that does not have a high minimum sales requirement (and there are some), every BP/W they would sell from that company is something they are not selling for the companies with which they have the minimum sales contracts.

4. Even if a company is easily meeting minimum sales quotas for a vendor, there is an incentive to sell more, because the company will charge lower wholesale prices for higher volumes of sales. That even goes for specific models of equipment. The shop I used to work for makes a HUGE push to get customers to purchase a specific BCD, a specific regulator set, a specific fin, a specific computer, a specific wet suit, etc. Their instructors are required to purchase and use those specific items when they instruct, and they are required to tell the students that they made those choices because as professionals they demand the best. The real reason is that that package of gear gives the shop the highest profit margin, and by increasing the volume on specific items, the profit margin is made even greater. (That is one of several reasons I no longer work for that shop.)

John, all of your reasons basically come down to dealer profit. However, most of the major dive manufacturers now have a tech line. Scubapro has Scubapro, Aqualung has Apeks, and Oceanic has Hollis. The only one I can think of that doesn't have a tech line is Sherwood. Certainly, shops carrying these brands could sell BP/Ws of they wanted too. They don't need to commit to a separate agreement with Dive Rite, Halcyon, Hog, or DSS.

 

[TSandM]

Many of the most popular vendors either do not make BP/Ws or they make one that people don't really want.

The last half of the sentence is key. Having helped someone set up one of the SP Tek systems, I can say that I'd buy DSS for less money, if it were me.

 

[kenny kustom]

My wife and I are taking our ow in halcyon infinity.
I like it. Instructors love it.
( even though didn't buy from them)

 

[ams511]

The last half of the sentence is key. Having helped someone set up one of the SP Tek systems, I can say that I'd buy DSS for less money, if it were me.

I doubt a new diver will know about the assortment of BP/Ws on the market or what they want. Certainly a dive shop could try to sell a new diver a BP/W instead of a BC. The list price of a Scubapro system is high but a dealer should be able to come close to Tobin's price. The list price of Hollis wings is more competitive with DSS and the build quality is good. I am not sure of the deal with Apeks. They seem to be more popular in the UK than here. I wonder if AL is purposely pushing its dealers to sell BCs instead.

 

[RJP]

I doubt a new diver will know about the assortment of BP/Ws on the market or what they want. Certainly a dive shop could try to sell a new diver a BP/W instead of a BC. The list price of a Scubapro system is high but a dealer should be able to come close to Tobin's price. The list price of Hollis wings is more competitive with DSS and the build quality is good. I am not sure of the deal with Apeks. They seem to be more popular in the UK than here. I wonder if AL is purposely pushing its dealers to sell BCs instead.

Judging by the design (and pricing) of the Apeks stuff, they are sure blurring the lines. As a marketer though, I can assure you they don't care which one the dealer sells. they just don't want to give a potential customer a less profitable alternative.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, all of your reasons basically come down to dealer profit. However, most of the major dive manufacturers now have a tech line. Scubapro has Scubapro, Aqualung has Apeks, and Oceanic has Hollis. The only one I can think of that doesn't have a tech line is Sherwood. Certainly, shops carrying these brands could sell BP/Ws of they wanted too. They don't need to commit to a separate agreement with Dive Rite, Halcyon, Hog, or DSS.

If you are an Aqualung shop and sell Apeks, yes, that will work. If you are an Oceanic shop, no, your Hollis requirements are different. (I'm working on that right now.)