BP/W, DIR, SS1 Q's.

[scuga]

So I have read a lot on BP/W instead of BC's and that led me to DIR. I also saw the SS1 when I was looking at the mask I got on atomic website.

Can an SS1 go into a wing or is it just for bc's?

Why does DIR do the octo around the neck and donate primary in OOA situation but a SS1 is not DIR? It seems to me in my uneducated not even certified opinion that the SS1 is close to the same thing and more streamlined because it is less hoses.

I have read a million octo/inflator vs octo but I didn't find why the octo/inflator is not DIR or if I did it wasn't in terms I could understand them . Scuba is a lot like IT there is an acronym for everything (afe)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is another failure point and a solution to a non existent problem. The integrated octos seem to work well for those who actually practice with them. Imagine that one does not. Now in an OOA situation you donate your (usually) short primary, put the integrated octo in your mouth while holding on to some part of your buddy and at the same time vent air out of that integrated octo to prevent a runaway ascent. Seems you are short a hand. With long hose you donate it. Have some breathing room so to speak and pop the reg under your chin into your mouth ( many can do this no hands just dip your chin and there it is), and grab your inflator and do a nice easy controlled ascent.

DIR also is rooted to a degree in cave diving. In a cave if you go OOA and need to share air your buddy and you will appreciate that 7 foot hose in sections where two divers cannot pass in any way other than single file. The same is true in some wrecks. The integrated octos I've seen and the one or two I've actually used also are at the end of some inflator hose that is way too long and less than optimal to use due to the length. I have two sherwood shadows that I use just to show students the different things they could run into.

They are also more expensive than a standard octo and the argument that they reduce clutter by one hose or aid in streamlining is questionable at best. DIR, Hogarthian, or other similar styles of diving promote reducing failure points, simplifying configurations, and taking just what you need and no more.

I do not allow integrated octos in my advanced classes unless the student can demonstrate real proficiency with them in a number of emergency situations. In OW classes none of the gear I have available for use has them and though I do cover them in class I do not promote them or advise students to use them. IF someone really wants one I'll train with them in it's use.

There are those who use integrated octos on wings but I fail to see the need. Wings are designed to work with the inflators that they come with. Adding to them just seems to be defeating the purpose of them which is to reduce or eliminate excess task loading.

 

[Sloth]

Can't speak for an GUE or UTD instructor but I would imagine they would say something along the lines of how kludgie it is.

One issue i see is if your inflator hose is leaking or if you have to disconnect it all together you lose your back up and thus end the dive. Depending on the dive loss of inflator isn't necessarily end of the dive.

Second issue I see is for diving with deco bottles. As large and bulky as that thing is I could see it interfering with stages or deco bottles clipped off to the left D-ring.

 

[elan]

Why does DIR do the octo around the neck and donate primary in OOA situation but a SS1 is not DIR? It seems to me in my uneducated not even certified opinion that the SS1 is close to the same thing and more streamlined because it is less hoses.

I think one of the reasons is that primary inflation and backup second stage are connected to different posts. Primary inflation to the right and backup reg to the left.

 

[rstofer]

As to what DIR or GUE thinks, there are many thousands of divers having a great time and not giving a moment's thought to their concerns. When you get that far with your diving, you can look at what they promote and decide whether to drink the Kool-Aid or not. A lot of what they promote makes good sense. It's just that I reject the pedantic approach that everything else is wrong or dangerous. And not everyone will dive in caves or inside wrecks. Some of us just want to look at the pretty fish - or the Decorator Crabs in my case.

That said, I have bought into the idea of donating the primary on a 5' hose and have my octo on a necklace. The octo thing works out well but the long hose gets tangled in my snorkel. See, DIR & GUE aren't much on snorkels and I am. And a roll-up snorkel in a pocket I don't have doesn't work out either. I'm still working on it.

As to the alternate air source/inflator, I had an AIR II device on my BC when I dove in warm water. There isn't much buoyancy change in warm water so I never had to face the idea of controlling my buoyancy with the device I had in my mouth while I managed my victim with my 3d hand. In warm water, these devices make a lot more sense than they do in cold water. Since I dive in cold water, my BC and AIR II have been retired in favor of a BP/W and necklaced octo. In the end, I think the AIR iI devices really are an attempt to solve a problem that never existed.

One of the things your will find is that most 'package' BCs/computers/regulators/whatever are really designed for the warm water resort diver. That is the market for scuba. The minority of divers tend to be much more experienced and more selective in what they use. They seem to congregate on SB. You won't find support for AIR II devices on SB. Depending on the phase of the moon, you won't find support for BCs either. And, from me, you will never hear a good word about integrated weights.

Bottom line: view everything you read on SB with a great deal of skepticism. Especially anything I might post.

Richard

 

[TSandM]

At the heart of the DIR idea is that the gear configuration you start out with as a new diver is basically the same gear configuration you will use for a 3 bottle staged decompression dive, or a long cave penetration. The configuration has to be flexible, and offer a wide range of solutions to a variety of potential problems.

Now imagine you are over an hour into a cave, and your primary regulator starts to leak. You turn the post off on that side, and switch to your . . . SS1. You are now facing an HOUR of swimming and breathing off the device. Is this likely to be comfortable and efficient?

But you are definitely thinking in the right way, to be looking at streamlining and minimizing extra gear. It's just that integrated inflators don't scale very well into more involved diving. They also have the disadvantages listed, as well as the one that they aren't standard, so you can't swap your inflator out for your teammate's if there's an issue with yours.

An SS1 may be an adequate solution for the types of dives you intend to do, if you think through all these objections and none of them pertain. But it isn't DIR for the reasons you have been given.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

At the heart of the DIR idea is that the gear configuration you start out with as a new diver is basically the same gear configuration you will use for a 3 bottle staged decompression dive, or a long cave penetration. The configuration has to be flexible, and offer a wide range of solutions to a variety of potential problems.

Now imagine you are over an hour into a cave, and your primary regulator starts to leak. You turn the post off on that side, and switch to your . . . SS1. You are now facing an HOUR of swimming and breathing off the device. Is this likely to be comfortable and efficient?

But you are definitely thinking in the right way, to be looking at streamlining and minimizing extra gear. It's just that integrated inflators don't scale very well into more involved diving. They also have the disadvantages listed, as well as the one that they aren't standard, so you can't swap your inflator out for your teammate's if there's an issue with yours.

An SS1 may be an adequate solution for the types of dives you intend to do, if you think through all these objections and none of them pertain. But it isn't DIR for the reasons you have been given.

I don't think Air II's were ever designed for doing long swims out of caves or wrecks on doubles. The market was and probably still is for the warm water reef diver, 40 to 60 foot range, and all it is is just a minimal device to bail someone out and go straight up without dilly dallying around. Basically one step higher than a spare air.
Seemed like a good idea at the time but in reality and upon closer examination, not so good.

I gave mine up years ago when I was doing my rescue class. My buddy and I both had one because that was all the rage back then. We had to do an air share and it was my turn. I give the OOA air signal so he hands me his primary and goes to put the air II in his mouth. He's fumbling around for it and grabs his snorkel instead and tries to breath off it, which gives him a mouthfull of water. He shoots to the top (we were only in 20 feet) which pulls the primary right out of my mouth. I'm left sitting there thinking "Hey, I'm the one that's supposed to be OOA, where the hell did he go???"
If it would have been a real scenario at 100 feet it would have been ugly.

So if any body want's an Air II let me know. No reasonable offer refused.

 

[a22shady]

As others have stated get as much good advice as you can eduacate yourself before making purchase's. And always talk to your LDS to get true Face to face verbal clarity. Also make sure te person your talking at the diveshop is qualified to answer your quetions and concerns correctly.

For me Thats what I did. And you will give yourself a head start. When getting your Equipment the BP/w is definetly the way to go. Try the jacket style and the BP/w just so you can see and feel the difference. Also you would want to do the Long/Short hose configuration. It trully does make a whole lot of difference when your donating air. That space makes swimming so much easier. and your Octo is right there around your neck.

 

[herman]

One slight correction for you. A BP/wing is a BC. There are basically 3 variations of BC's that have been used over the years. The horse collar, which was the original type but is not used much today, the jacket type- the style you most likely learned in and the back inflate type, of which the BP/wing is one of the various styles within the general group of the back inflates.

 

[TSandM]

The original question was:

I have read a million octo/inflator vs octo but I didn't find why the octo/inflator is not DIR or if I did it wasn't in terms I could understand them

I attempted to answer that, in terms he could understand.

I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone in their right mind ever sold an octo-inflator for cave or technical diving, I was just trying to explain why, since the DIR philosophy is to begin as you mean to go on, the octo-inflator doesn't fit.