bp/w advice - OxyCheq, others..

[cool_hardware52]

True. But consumer protection laws in some countries effectively restrict what controls the manufacturers can exercise over retailers. That is why LP was able to purchase grey market goods from some foreign markets and the mfgrs were unable to stop it. Some also may require that parts be made available to the end consumer.

I'd suggest most manufacturers didn't want to stop grey market goods, but wanted to look they were trying to. It's all part of trying to manage the end game for the exclusive dealer model without missing out on online sales.

It's hard to imagine statues that will require the sale of anything to anybody, but who knows. Statists do odd things.

Tobin

 

[ams511]

I said nothing about Leisure pro. Leisure Pro is a discount *Reseller* I'm talking about Manufacturer direct. Tobin

What large manufacturers in Europe primarily sell direct to the end user? None that I know of. That is what my original post was about. You are talking about manufacturer direct. I was the one that said Leisure Pro dragged the big manufacturers into the internet age kicking and screaming.

As for how more people increased profits that is simple: Profit = margin x sales. So profit will increase if the increase in sales outweighs the decrease in margin. Probably Chris, formerly of HOG, would be a better one to ask. Certainly he could have set HOG up as direct sales but chose to go through dealers. He must have saw some value in it.

Who makes the dealer agreement the LDS or the manufacturer? Who sets minimum orders and yearly volumes? Sorry but Scubapro has much more pull over a Beaver Divers than Beaver Divers has over Scubapro.

My take on Oceanic is that Oceanic was supposed to be the "premium" line, Aeris the "value" line and Hollis the "tech" line. I see a few problems with this approach, first Oceanic was never considered a "premium" line, like Scubapro or Atomic. Second, the lines between "tech" and "recreational" are blurred. This is what happens when you let marketers run amok and have redundant brands. However, your point was that existing contracts and sales models prohibited direct sales. I showed you one method of getting out of this legacy arrangement. BTW, OMS is coming back.

As far as stocking goes you are missing the point. It is far more advantageous (cheaper) for the manufacturer to have the dealer stock the inventory and incur the carrying costs rather than have a central warehouse incurring the carrying costs and paying someone to do distribution. As for stocking dealers, the dealers stock what is popular (easy to sell) and high margin, which is also what manufacturers want. I have never been to a dive shop without any inventory.

---------- Post added March 11th, 2015 at 09:15 AM ----------

True. But consumer protection laws in some countries effectively restrict what controls the manufacturers can exercise over retailers. That is why LP was able to purchase grey market goods from some foreign markets and the mfgrs were unable to stop it. Some also may require that parts be made available to the end consumer.

As Tobin mentioned, there is the "European system" primarily internet sales and the "American system" primarily LDS sales. My point is this, given that in the US a manufacturer could voluntarily adopt to use the "European system" and sell primarily through the internet. The easiest way to do this would be to drop MAP pricing (which I believe is against EU rules).

My understanding that LP bought goods internationally but also purchased surplus inventory from US dive shops that were struggling to meet the requirements of their dealership agreements. I miss the wheeling and dealing days of old.

 

[redacted]

As Tobin mentioned, there is the "European system" primarily internet sales and the "American system" primarily LDS sales. My point is this, given that in the US a manufacturer could voluntarily adopt to use the "European system" and sell primarily through the internet. The easiest way to do this would be to drop MAP pricing (which I believe is against EU rules).

My understanding that LP bought goods internationally but also purchased surplus inventory from US dive shops that were struggling to meet the requirements of their dealership agreements. I miss the wheeling and dealing days of old.

My understanding is that German consumer protection laws, for example, say that when the mfgr sells to the retailer, that merchandise is the retailer's for him to do as he sees fit - no strings attached. So he can sell it for a 10% profit or ship it to a warehouse in NJ. And, if the manufacturer denies him future product because he didn't like what the retailer did with his merchandise, the mfgr can be held liable for any related losses incurred by the retailer. Even when mfgrs tracked serial numbers so they could see the sources of grey market goods, their options were rather limited as to what they could do about it.

 

[ams511]

I am not sure what German or EU laws are anymore. A few years ago it was easy to order from European dealers and now it is not. So evidently there are some restrictions as to where a retailer can sell items. Leisure Pro is not an Aqualung dealer so they are still able to get grey market goods from somewhere.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Anybody waiting on the renaissance of the LDS to save scuba is kidding themselves, more dive shop close than open each year. A few large dealers in larger Metro Areas, mostly online sales for the rest of the country, independent instructors and club operated fill stations. This won't make everybody happy, but's the new normal.

Tobin

Some of this is theory and hasen't become reality yet.

When someone on the board inquires about BP/W and someone says "Drive out to Pasadena and see Tobin" you are essentially becoming the LDS for the time they are there. You are explaining the product to them, fitting them, setting up the rig for them etc. Now I don't know if you actually do this or not, but the point is without the physical in-person contact of a "pro" to help someone who knows nothing about any of this, the new buyer/diver would be lost.
The internet is fine for people who know what they want and can find it cheaper on the intenet, but for the person who knows nothing it just confuses the crap out of them and many times just one website isn't one stop shopping, they must go to several websites to get the best stuff at the best prices. This is daunting. Then there's always the gear discussion they start on forums to find out about that it is they should get. As usual there's always a few that will sit behind their computer with a beer and and start heckling. How is a prospect supposed to know what is BS and what is not? Getting advice on the internet from a bunch of people you don't know and have never met that can't prove their integrity is a pretty sorry outlook for the future of diving. If you were to meet all the people you've had discussions with on this board alone, how different do you think they would be in person? I'll bet it would be worse than you think.
And as far as independent instructors, without a solid business that they can walk into that offers all the classes they need with a social scene as a bonus, finding an independent could end up being a wild turkey chase and a lot of hearsay. Not that it can't be done, but maybe more work than their willing to put in. Finding a club? same thing. Unless they are already a diver and in the scene will they know where or what dive clubs are around.
Air fills I could see at on site kiosks or maybe fire depts might consider making a little extra money by doing fills for the public at certain times? who knows.
But it is my theory that without the LDS the initial contact and open door to the entry level prospect will be severely diminished.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Some of this is theory and hasen't become reality yet.

When someone on the board inquires about BP/W and someone says "Drive out to Pasadena and see Tobin" you are essentially becoming the LDS for the time they are there. You are explaining the product to them, fitting them, setting up the rig for them etc. Now I don't know if you actually do this or not, but the point is without the physical in-person contact of a "pro" to help someone who knows nothing about any of this, the new buyer/diver would be lost.

We sell world wide. DSS is not a dive shop, we don't pretend to be, we are a manufacturer. Very very few of our customers "drive out to Pasadena"

We don't do "fittings" as it not really possible. I do make detailed recommendations based on a divers height, exposure suit, and cylinders used.

In the end every diver ends up "fitting" a BP&W themselves.

It may take a few dives, and it requires the diver be wearing their exposure suit and cylinder and have access to water. With very few expections if the diver starts with the correct selection of plate, harness and wing this self fitting is pretty easy.

None of this requires one on one personal contact with the end user. It fits the internet model easily.

Tobin

 

[halocline]

Sorry but Scubapro has much more pull over a Beaver Divers than Beaver Divers has over Scubapro.

Ahh, the beav. I miss the beav, I guess Eddie Haskell must have finally gotten him.

Church Of Beaver Cleaver, The

 

[ams511]

But it is my theory that without the LDS the initial contact and open door to the entry level prospect will be severely diminished.

My theory is that the person wants to dive first before walking into the LDS. I don't think the LDS can do anything except maybe expand the discovery diving programs in order to get people interested.

Diving is a luxury good and it is expensive and people's real incomes are declining. Some like to say it is no more expensive than golf but I don't believe that is true. Also most cities of any size has a golf course, few cities have great diving close by. Also there is a social/business aspect to golf that you don't get with diving. The dive industry responded with dive travel, but what makes them think that people are going to spend thousands on a trip to nowhere that has great diving? A few will but most probably won't.

You can call me a gear heckler for giving advice but I have no financial interest in their purchase. I can only give my opinion and try to point out differences between products. Because I have no financial interest my advice can be considered more objective than that from an LDS. Why would I need to lie? However I do see your point especially when moderators get involved to promote products of their friends or people have a bone to pick because of a manufacturer's policies which are standard in the industry. A new diver doesn't know who to believe.

I am not sure what the business model will be in the future. However, I think the key will be cultivating and growing a customer base.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

My theory is that the person wants to dive first before walking into the LDS. I don't think the LDS can do anything except maybe expand the discovery diving programs in order to get people interested.

Diving is a luxury good and it is expensive and people's real incomes are declining. Some like to say it is no more expensive than golf but I don't believe that is true. Also most cities of any size has a golf course, few cities have great diving close by. Also there is a social/business aspect to golf that you don't get with diving. The dive industry responded with dive travel, but what makes them think that people are going to spend thousands on a trip to nowhere that has great diving? A few will but most probably won't.

You can call me a gear heckler for giving advice but I have no financial interest in their purchase. I can only give my opinion and try to point out differences between products. Because I have no financial interest my advice can be considered more objective than that from an LDS. Why would I need to lie? However I do see your point especially when moderators get involved to promote products of their friends or people have a bone to pick because of a manufacturer's policies which are standard in the industry. A new diver doesn't know who to believe.

I am not sure what the business model will be in the future. However, I think the key will be cultivating and growing a customer base.

I think it's going to be a little of both.
What the dive shops need to understand is that they are not the "go to" source for everything anymore and the internet isn't just an annoyance that will run it's course and go away.
The one thing that dive shops CAN provide that the internet CAN NOT is person to person customer service, and they better get really good at it.
When someone walks in and asks if they have something, to just point and say "It's over there" doesn't cut it. They also better school themselves on what's new and stop thinking that they are the end all authority on everything scuba and their poodle jackets because one thing the internet can do way better than any dive shop is reach a world wide audience. The information is out there.
Also, with this whole BP/W thing, I remember when info on them was very scarce, way more than now. At least now there are a few shops that carry them, although very few, and none around me.
I just had to use my imagination when they were described on the internet and go for it, but a lot of people won't do that.

I don't care what anybody says, there is no substitute for actually seeing/touching/feeling/trying on a product and having it explained by an expert before buying it.
And also the air fill thing.

 

[Wijbrandus]

Also, with this whole BP/W thing, I remember when info on them was very scarce, way more than now. At least now there are a few shops that carry them, although very few, and none around me.
I just had to use my imagination when they were described on the internet and go for it, but a lot of people won't do that.

I don't care what anybody says, there is no substitute for actually seeing/touching/feeling/trying on a product and having it explained by an expert before buying it.
And also the air fill thing.

When I got into diving, I was lucky enough to find Scubaboard and find out about backplates. There was one LDS in my area carried backplates, and they bent over backwards to show me all there was to know about them. That shop sold Halcyon. I still dive that plate and wing today, it's the only BCD I've ever owned. If they had sold OMS or DiveRite, that's probably what I'd have now. Their service was outstanding, and I was sold on that as much as the benefits of the wing.

If I had to order online at the time, I don't think I would have gone with a backplate. If that LDS hadn't had one, and taken the time to go over it with me, I'd have never spent the money sight unseen. I'd be diving probably a Scubapro Knighthawk, because that's what the shop I certified at pushed. This was over ten years ago.

Customer service makes or breaks an LDS. I love it when I find a shop that embraces that. There's shops in the Denver Metro that I will not ever set foot in again because they don't understand the meaning of the term.