bone setting to improve equilization disorders

[page.crow]

Well Folks, I've been working on a young woman who presented to my office with inability to dive without severe pain in one ear and the inability to pressure equalize.

I've treated this patient one time per week for the past four weeks. This is considered a very conservative treatment schedule, as far as any chiropractor would consider.

On the fourth week, the patient reported that she could definitely pressure equalize out of water in both ears. The patient was using what we call a Valsalva manuever: She held pressure in her ears and sinouses and blew out. She reports it's the first time she's been able to feel pressure change pass through BOTH ears. I am happy for her.

Realize this is after only three chiropractic adjustments. She reports success with this little bit of work.

We still have to get in the pool, which we will do next week.

If she can go to depth and pressure balance, it will be the first time she's been able to do this. I am hopeful.

Perhaps we can keep this young woman in the scuba diving hobby. Maybe she will go on become someone who contributes greatly to the scuba diving industry. She was going to give it up, until I talked her mother and father into giving chiropractic a chance.

We'll let you know how she is doing next week.

I wish all well.

page crow dc

 

[BillP]

page.crow once bubbled...

I'd appreciate it if you let my try.

Dr. Crow, you can try anything you like here, but when you come on this board and make extraordinary claims you can expect to be asked to back up your statements. (While you may not recognize it, your claims are indeed extraordinary.) And when you apparently can’t back up your statements as you claim then you can expect to be questioned further. There’s nothing sinister or oppressive about that.

page.crow once bubbled...


Misdirection is one tool-like Bill used here. Bill's referral over to quack watch misdirects the forum public here. The TOPIC was and still is CERVICAL SPINE MANIPULATION FOR EAR EQUILIZATION DISORDERS. Bill's attempt to misdirect the public to look at a defamatory website that calls chiropractors quacks is a common fallacious act.

Subtle work there Bill. Calling my profession quackery, but taking it off the forum and letting some other entity do the trash talking. Very clever. I got to hand it to you.

EXCUSE ME!? I called chiropractic “a noble, honorable, safe, and effective art”. I must say that I consider your intentional mischaracterization of my postings and your insulting comments about me trying to “misdirect” this discussion a personal attack, and I feel that I must respond.

I have made no claims in this thread. I have simply asked questions about your claims and provided the members of this board access to alternate viewpoints on chiropractic care. You can question my motives if you like, and even mischaracterize my contributions to this thread if you choose, but my motives and actions are irrelevant to the question at hand- Are your claims about chiropractic being a research “proven” treatment for equalization disorders in divers true? When you make extraordinary claims on this board, and particularly when you seem to be trying to direct members of this board to your own practice (i.e. “Currently, a young member of this board is undergoing this research experiment.” BTW, I hope that you’re paying this board member to participate in your research study- or at least treating her at no charge and with informed consent- like an ethical researcher would rather than charging her.) then your motives and your tactics are relevant to the discussion.

Let’s review your behavior in this thread so far. You have claimed that chiropractic care is a “proven” treatment for ear equalization disorders in divers and have claimed the “properly done, valid, and repeatable“ research exists to back it up. As I stated earlier, yours is indeed an extraordinary claim. When people make extraordinary claims, the burden of proof rest with them. As “proof” of your claim, you provided only your personal experience and a couple of anecdotal reports (and no, more anecdotal reports won’t strengthen the “science” of your case). Anecdotal reports are fascinating, and they often initiate appropriate research, but they are hardly “proof”. I’m sure that we could find someone among the 17,000+ members of this board who has seen the focusing of the celestial energy of the ancients by sleeping in a wire-frame pyramid cure equalization disorders in divers- again, hardly proof of the therapy. I’m also sure that you could find many, many dive instructors on this board who will tell you that they’ve helped students to equalize after they’ve worked with them for weeks as you have (but without chiropractic manipulation)- even when previous attempts by other instructors have failed. That’s why I was intrigued by your statement:

page.crow once bubbled...

Vertebral manipulation (chiropractic adjustments) have been proven very effective for inner ear disorders (fluid congestion, earache, imbalance, vertigo). The research regarding this subject has been properly done, valid, and repeatable.

In my first post, I repeated the earlier request from Dr. Campbell that asked you to support that claim, as you had so far failed to do so. His request didn’t seem to me to be at all unreasonable since you had claimed in your post that the “proof” exists. But instead of answering Dr. Campbell with the verifiable facts that he asked for, you provided anecdotes and then seemed to resort to a personal attack on Dr. Campbell, his website, and his profession as a whole. What does Dr. Campbell, the layout of his website, or the practice of mainstream medicine have to do with the accuracy of your statements? To my read you resorted to “name calling, misdirection, fallacious statements, general suppression”, and “ignorance” to support your position rather than answering his question. Tactics that by your own standards you seem to think should be frowned upon.

Now you accuse me of misdirecting this discussion! Nothing could be further from the truth. You professed your personal opinion on the efficacy of chiropractic care for a non-musculoskeletal disorder and urged readers of this board to pursue an unusual (to say the least) course of treatment. I simply provided a link to another opinion on chiropractic care (and I labeled it as opinion in my post). I could have reproduced the volumes of articles about chiropractic care on Quackwatch (I counted 15) here, but why reinvent the wheel when the information is readily available to anyone who clicks on the “hot-link” I provided? That is not “misdirecting”, Dr. Crow. That is providing additional viewpoints and information for the readers of this board so they can make their own informed decision.

But let’s look again a the direction you have taken readers when you referred them off the board. In response to Dr. Campbell’s request for the scientific evidence you claim, you responded with:

page.crow once bubbled...
My reply to Dr. Campbell:


Chiropractic research can be accessed via chirolars, www.dynamicchiropractic.com, www.icpa4kids.com, JMPT to name a few. Any chiropractic college can direct you to specific research if you so seek it.

You’ll recall that I looked at your “references” earlier. You referred the readers of this board to the Chirolars chiropractic literature search engine, or to “any chiropractic college” to find the information for themselves. I could not find where Chirolars is available online (and you certainly didn’t provide a source) to the readers of this thread. And surely you’re aware that there are only 19 chiropractic colleges in the entire US and Canada (I wonder how many in the world?) and the chances of an interested reader having one reasonably nearby must be quite low. Why did you direct us to sources that we can’t readily access? Perhaps you were counting on the fact that the vast majority of the members of this board would not have access to your “references”? Very “clever”, Dr. Crow.

You also referred the readers of this board to “www.dynamicchiropractic.com”. That is not even a valid URL. When I attempted to go to that website I was re-directed to http://www.chiroweb.com/dynamic/ . Sure that could have been a simple mistake on your part, but when I went to that website and found nothing on it to support your position about chiropractic care for ear equalization disorders (or any other non-musculoskeletal disorder for that matter) I started to wonder if you even looked at the website before you sent the readers of this board there! Why did you misdirect us to a website to support your claim when best I can tell it does nothing of the sort? It looks more like an advertisement than “research” to me.

The “www.icpa4kids.com” (http://www.icpa4kids.com/) website you cite for “proof” of your claim that chiropractic care is effective in equalization disorders in divers is the International Chiropractic Pediatric Association’s website. OK, I’ll grant you that I can see a possible connection where if chiropractic care is effective in children’s ear disorders, it might be effective in adults, and by extrapolation it could possibly be effective in adult divers’ equalization problems- if such research existed. But that’s quite a reach, and (as I mentioned in an earlier post) when I looked at this website you provided as evidence to support your position, I didn’t even find “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research to show that chiropractic care is effective in treating ear disorders in children, much less adults. So why did you misdirect the readers of this board to that website?

Most damning of all is your use of “JMPT”- the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics- as one of your references to support your claim. (Incidentally, I wonder if you realized that your use of that rather cryptic abbreviation for the journal in your post would make it much harder for board members unaccustomed to literature searches to check your source? More "cleverness" on your part?) The Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics is indeed a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and titles and abstracts of articles in that journal are available online for free to any board member by searching Medline/PubMed through the National Library of Medicine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi) or any number of other sources. It’s apparently a sound reference, sponsored by the National College of Chiropractic, that publishes peer-review scientific articles in your field. Hmmm... a peer-reviewed scientific journal run by chiropractors that you personally recommend as a reference. That pretty much negates your bias and suppression by the medical establishment argument, at least as far as “JMPT” is concerned, doesn’t it? Yet the only study that I found in your own reference source that even remotely addresses your claim of “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research on chiropractic care to treat ear problems concludes that such research doesn’t exist! (See my earlier post above for a link to the article.) Your own references- including a chiropractic journal no less- not only don’t support your claim, at least one seems to refute it! Why did you misdirect the board to these irrelevant (and even contradictory) sources?

Again, when you make claims on this board, your motives and tactics are relevant to the discussion. You make extraordinary and unsubstantiated assertions here on this board, and when asked to provide sources for the “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research you claim, you resort to attacks on the people who question you, you direct us to information we can’t reasonably be expected to be able to access, you provide links to websites with an invalid URL and/or irrelevant websites, and you give a cryptic referral to a journal that actually refutes rather than supports your claims. The only evidence of any sort that you bring to us is a small collection of anecdotes- which I stated earlier are hardly “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research. Frankly, I question whether you would be able to recognize “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research if it jumped up and bit you on the subluxation. So it would seem, Dr. Crow, that if anyone here has resorted to “name calling, misdirection, fallacious statements, general suppression, or ignorance” in this thread, it looks like it’s you.

Sincerely,

BillP

To my fellow readers: I stated earlier in this thread that I consider chiropractic a noble, honorable, safe, and effective art when practiced properly, and I believe that statement. But as Dr. Crow says, there are indeed “less than honorable” people in every profession who “do stupid things”. For example, hyperbaric medicine is an area of particular interest to divers and hyperbaric therapy’s usefulness in some diving disorders is abundantly clear to all of us. But hyperbaric medicine is a field of medicine that was once (and to a limited extent, still is) riddled with practitioners who used hyperbaric treatments for a variety of, uhm shall we say, “unscientific” indications. (See http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/HBOT/hmindex.html for further information.) The Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society (http://www.uhms.org/) is an organization of health professionals that helps deal with this “problem” of unproven and unscientific practice. Their stated purpose is “to provide scientific information to protect the health of sport, military and commercial divers and to improve the scientific basis of hyperbaric oxygen therapy, promote sound treatment protocols and standards of practice and provide CME (continuing medical education) accreditation.” The society was formed, in part, to help establish which indications for hyperbaric treatment had a scientific basis and to weed out the, well to put it bluntly, quackery. I would recommend that any diver needing a hyperbaric physician seek out a doctor who if not actually a member of UHMS at least adheres to their principles. I would also recommend the same to a reader of this board who is contemplating chiropractic treatment- seek out a chiropractor who rejects (and is capable of recognizing) treatments not supported by “properly done, valid, and repeatable” research. I wouldn’t think that should be so hard to do. One possible source you might try is the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (http://www.chiromed.org/). I don’t have any personal knowledge about this organization, but their goals seem sound IMHO- along the lines of the UHMS’s. Like with the UHMS, it is a by-invitation only organization for membership so not every good chiropractor will be a member, but I’d be willing to wager that Dr. Crow’s not in it.

Just my 2¢,

Bill

 

[DocVikingo]

I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about chiropractic.

However, having been on the faculty of the country's top rated medical school for many years I do fancy that I know something about the scientific method, thinking logically, the preferability of supporting one's assertions with citable, published research rather than anecdote, arguing in a dignified fashion, and kindred niceties of discussing one's positions with other professionals. These are the fundamentals by which any true health care profession gains credence and respect.

On the other hand, adducing unsupported claims or claims based on report of experience or anecdote (e.g., "Specific controlled manipulation of the spine has an INCREDIBLE positive effect on the ENT"), alleging that solid evidence is unavailable largely because the profession has been discriminated against by another, and personal attacks upon those who politely question your perspectives only make a discipline appear weak and unworthy of being taken seriously.

As for dismissing polite and apparently legitimate questioners of your assertions not on the basis of any proof, science or even theory, but rather by suggesting that they are specious in their arguments, only whipping up misinformation, ignorant, and focussed on controlling and suppressing your discipline--well, that could be seen as shading over from unacceptable techniques of argument to my area of specialization, psychiatry.

In my view, anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the anatomy and physiology of the ENT might understandably be puzzled as to what chiropractic might bring to the process of equalization during scuba. If there is any basis for your claims, I simply do not fathom why your response to this question has been one of massive defensiveness devoid of any explanation as to exactly how manipulation/adjustment may be of benefit.

As a final note, you have stated that you "see 40-70 patients per day." Let's say that you see patients for a solid 8 hours a day, with additional hours for completing charts, taking breaks for lunch and the loo, returning phone calls, attending to business paperwork & keeping up with the literature stretching the days to 12 hours or beyond. If you see 40 patients, that suggests that each patient is getting, on balance, only about 12 minutes of your attention. If you see 70, it's more on the order of about 7 minutes. Can meaningful chiropractic diagnosis and manipulative therapy really be consistently accomplished in 7 to 12 minutes?

I must say that if I were a chiropractor I would be deeply embarrassed by the conduct of the DC's involved in this discussion. I would add that while I have long maintained an open mind about chiropractic, the discipline's reflection in this thread has caused my view to narrow somewhat.

Best regards.

DocVikingo

 

[Wyno]

BillP once bubbled...

[ Anecdotal reports are fascinating, and they often initiate appropriate research, but they are hardly “proof”. I’m sure that we could find someone among the 17,000+ members of this board who has seen the focusing of the celestial energy of the ancients by sleeping in a wire-frame pyramid cure equalization disorders in divers- again, hardly proof of the therapy.

Just my 2¢,

Bill

I guess I must be one of those members.

I would like to give you a back ground of how I grew up, to show you that I’m not just filling you full of poo. My father hated Chiropractic care and DO’s the only good medical care was MD’s and I believed it and to this day I still don’t like DO’s because of all the things that have happened to my family seemingly because of DO’s. So needless to say when I married my wife 15 years ago and she was using the Chiropractor. I didn’t like it, but if that is what she wanted. It made her fell better but I was still afraid that she would get injured in some way.

15 years later my wife is still ok.

My Daughter, who you are discussing here, has had problems equalizing for 6 months. Our MD could not find anything wrong, we even tried Sudafed but nothing was working. Then the wife went in for an adjustment and told Dr. Crow about my Daughter and Dr. Crow talked about adjustments to help her and of course I was thinking back to my years growing up and said to myself yeah right but after 15 years with Dr. Crow I thought nothing bad would come of it, so why not.

Not being able to equalize has gone on for over 6 months and after only 3 visits she was again equalizing in both ears, she had always been able to do the right ear but not the left. She just had her 4th adjustment and the pool session is coming up and then onto deeper water. For the last 6 months she had been unable to go below 6ft and that was even uncomfortable. If she can equalize to 15 feet in the pool I think that would be good progress.

I will keep you informed.

 

[BillP]

Wyno once bubbled...


So needless to say when I married my wife 15 years ago and she was using the Chiropractor. I didn’t like it, but if that is what she wanted. It made her fell better but I was still afraid that she would get injured in some way.

15 years later my wife is still ok.

So your wife has been seeing a chiropractor for 15 years, presumably for a variety of ills or the same recurring ill. I have never seen a chiropractor in over 40 years and I feel just fine. So this proves that chiropractic causes ill feelings? The same logic is there, but it's hardly proof.

Perhaps you should have your daughter sleep in a wire frame pyramid too and double her chances of being able to clear her ears. There are plenty of people on the Internet willing to explain to you how it works, and even sell you the pyramid you'll need. You can even get special "sacred symbols" specific for ear disorders to add to the pyramid. After all, people have been focusing celestial energy with pyramids to cure disease at least as long as the Chinese have been practicing tui-na, so it must work, eh?

Wish your daughter luck from me.

Bill

 

[Wyno]

BillP once bubbled...



So your wife has been seeing a chiropractor for 15 years, presumably for a variety of ills or the same recurring ill. I have never seen a chiropractor in over 40 years and I feel just fine. So this proves that chiropractic causes ill feelings? The same logic is there, but it's hardly proof.

Bill

EXCUSE ME!? My feelings I gave you because I wanted to show you that I’m just not one of those that take things at face value.

My attitude toward Chiropractic care has changed do to this experience and my attitude toward MD's has also change.

 

[Wyno]

BillP once bubbled...

Perhaps you should have your daughter sleep in a wire frame pyramid too and double her chances of being able to clear her ears. There are plenty of people on the Internet willing to explain to you how it works, and even sell you the pyramid you'll need. You can even get special "sacred symbols" specific for ear disorders to add to the pyramid. After all, people have been focusing celestial energy with pyramids to cure disease at least as long as the Chinese have been practicing tui-na, so it must work, eh?

Bill

So now I'm a Quack for taking my daughter to a chiropractor. In my view that proves Dr. Crow's point of how some MD's feel about chiropractic care and those who think it works. I now see your real motive behind wanting to post quackwatch.

You are again very clever in not name calling directly.

 

[BillP]

Wyno once bubbled...


EXCUSE ME!? My feelings I gave you because I wanted to show you that I’m just not one of those that take things at face value.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted what you said, but taking your wife's experince with chiropractic "at face value" seemed to me exactly what you were doing- especially after the "evidence" that Dr. Crow presented here. I was merely pointing out to you that one could use the same data that you supplied in your post and use the same logic you seemed to be using (to my read at least), yet draw the opposite (and equally invalid- logically at least) conclusion. I was simply reiterating my position that anecdote is interesting, but it certainly isn't the "proof" Dr. Crow claims. Sorry if you took offense.

Wyno once bubbled...



So now I'm a Quack for taking my daughter to a chiropractor. In my view that proves Dr. Crow's point of how some MD's feel about chiropractic care and those who think it works. I now see your real motive behind wanting to post quackwatch.

Hmmm.... seems to me you're the one who started your discussion by saying that you believed in the healing powers of pyramids. No, I did not call you a quack, but yes I was hoping that I could help to get you thinking and assist you in drawing your own logical conclusion about Dr. Crow's claims and methods in this thread.

To wit: Maybe I misunderstood you again, but are you implying that you consider using celestial energy from the healing power of pyramids to be quackery? Whatever makes you think that? I can go outside right now and feel the power emanating from the Sun on my skin. The cosmic energy from the Sun, Moon, stars, and planets is very well documented. The healing powers of the Sun's energy (for vitamin D deficiency and neonatal jaundice for example) is also well documented in the scientific literature.

Proponents of pyramid therapy use the very same tactics to "prove" its worth that Dr. Crow used here. They are more than happy to explain how pyramids channel this healing force for a variety of ills. They point out that pyramids have been used for thousands of years by many cultures for lifegiving. They claim the (unrelated or irrelevant) "research" I mentioned above to strengthen their case. They complain about unfair "supression" or "ignorance" of their "truth" from the medical field. And they can give you testamonials to "prove" the worth of pyramid therapy. Yet you think they are quacks, but you pay for therapy with much of the same basis? Again, no offense intended, but I find that fascinating.

I am sincerely sorry if I've hurt your feelings, but I am also sincerely hopeful that I've given you something to think about- at least as far as some kinds of chiropractic care are concerned. If you want to pursue chiropractic care once you have had the chance to examine it fully, then that's fine with me. Just make sure you make a fully informed and logical decision.

HTH,

Bill

 

[Wyno]

BillP once bubbled...


I was simply reiterating my position that anecdote is interesting, but it certainly isn't the "proof" Dr. Crow claims. Sorry if you took offense.

Bill

Anecdote perhaps but like I said I went to a MD and he found nothing. So I decided on a different approach we went to Dr. Crow within 3 weeks she was able to clear her ears, it was only out of water but more then she been able to do for 6 months.

The wife happens to be the only one that can clear her ears very easy not necessarily evidence that chiropractic care has help, but maybe.

It has to start somewhere.

The pyramid thing sounds weird to me, I really thought it was something you came up with. I took it the wrong way and for that I apologize.

 

[hnladue]

OK I've been see a chiropractor now for 23 years. I don't go regularly. I only go when I do something stupid!! Usually it's when I fall off a horse and can't walk the next day. I've been seeing the same guy for all these years and he knows me well! He knows I only need to come when something screws up. Last time I was in, I told him I have trouble equalizing. He did his thing and now I can equalize very well!! I go a little more regular now since I broke my pelvis last year, but just one little adjustment and my ears are so much better! Also I don't have trouble after diving anymore. The water doesn't get stuck in my ear anymore.

Chiroprators aren't for everyone, but if you give them a fair try, you just may get hooked! I never get sick, hardly ever have back problems (considering how many times I've fallen off a horse) and since my broken pelvis accident, I can walk without pain. These guys aren't witch doctors!! But sometimes I think my mom regular Dr is!!