Really? You can see the research thread on my website rms-republic.com from the 80s. Then you can read my book The Tsar's Treasure to see how the research developed to its current state. There were never any radical changes as you suggest, only refinements as new information came to light. We now have proven 1. a US Navy shipment of $800,000 face 1909 value, today appraised at $200,000,000. 2. and, more likely than not a $3,000,000 shipment to the Russian State Bank; and 3. $22,000,000 in Russian gold from NY bond sales. That's pretty specific detail. The US Government filed a claim in our admiralty action claiming all the gold aboard "based on Mr. Bayerle's good-faith research." And History Channel, too, vetted the research before putting the show on. I would suggest that you are thinking of some other "treasure hunter."
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Really? You can see the research thread on my website rms-republic.com from the 80s. Then you can read my book The Tsar's Treasure to see how the research developed to its current state. There were never any radical changes as you suggest, only refinements as new information came to light. We now have proven 1. a US Navy shipment of $800,000 face 1909 value, today appraised at $200,000,000. 2. and, more likely than not a $3,000,000 shipment to the Russian State Bank; and 3. $22,000,000 in Russian gold from NY bond sales. That's pretty specific detail. The US Government filed a claim in our admiralty action claiming all the gold aboard "based on Mr. Bayerle's good-faith research." And History Channel, too, vetted the research before putting the show on. I would suggest that you are thinking of some other "treasure hunter."
Read my book The Tsar's Treasure. Then we can have an intelligent conversation on facts.
Bubblesong
Contributor
@imagixx , this thread's indignation is more for the poor storyline of the show than whether there is any actual treasure. These Scuba-Soldiers would watch a good quality scuba search for Blackbeard's Beard Baubles as long as the diving was awesome and the crew's pranking each other didn't lead to Incident Reports.
I don't believe I need to read a biased book that would inevitably lead to the ridiculous conclusion of a vast amount of gold on the RMS Republic. For now let's set aside the payroll for the Great White Fleet and focus on the Russian Empire.
1909 is 2 years after the Tsar's defeat at the hands of the newly formed Japanese Empire and 2 years after the failed revolution of socialism that ended in the destruction of the second Duma. The Russian economy is doing very well. In 1909 it is the 4th largest economy in Europe behind the UK, Germany, and France. In late 1908 Russia just formed a excellent trade deal with France and has paid off its loans from the British and French. France buys up a fair amount of gold at low cost (from South Africa and the US). The US economy is second largest in the world and about to surpass the UK. Sensing tensions between the European powers, the US gives out loans like candy to every major player in Europe with a decent interest rate that favors everyone.
Now you claim that when the Republic went down that she carried $25 million (1909) in gold bound for the Russian empire with the French acting as a middleman... Why? Why would France act as the middleman for a loan to the Russians after France JUST signed one heck of a trade deal with them and all the governments involved wanted to keep it a secret...why? The US was on friendly terms with the Russians as we have given them loans since the 1860s. France had nothing to hide with its deals with the Russians as the surviving Romanovs fled there in 17-18.
So why the secrecy? You claim that the government of Russia could not withstand the loss of such a large loan and that Nicholas II was on his last legs due to the revolution of 06 and the empire's defeat at the hands of the Japanese. As mentioned above this is not true as the government was modernizing and the economy was booming. The social unrest had been quelled. It's leaders exiled or executed leaving the socialists leaderless and without power. Yet you claim that such a large loss would topple his government which is not true.
Two World Wars later a couple dozen ships that WERE loaded with Gold, Silver, and Platinum that WERE on top secret missions had been torpedoed and sunk, WERE WELL known to have carried precious metals WERE detailed and put on the record. Name me one gold ship that has been found where the cargo manifest makes no mention of the gold or other precious metal and was purposely covered up. There was not nor still have any reason to hide such a massive shipment. Who would have insured such a large shipment and why isn't it recorded ANYWHERE?
1909 is 2 years after the Tsar's defeat at the hands of the newly formed Japanese Empire and 2 years after the failed revolution of socialism that ended in the destruction of the second Duma. The Russian economy is doing very well. In 1909 it is the 4th largest economy in Europe behind the UK, Germany, and France. In late 1908 Russia just formed a excellent trade deal with France and has paid off its loans from the British and French. France buys up a fair amount of gold at low cost (from South Africa and the US). The US economy is second largest in the world and about to surpass the UK. Sensing tensions between the European powers, the US gives out loans like candy to every major player in Europe with a decent interest rate that favors everyone.
Now you claim that when the Republic went down that she carried $25 million (1909) in gold bound for the Russian empire with the French acting as a middleman... Why? Why would France act as the middleman for a loan to the Russians after France JUST signed one heck of a trade deal with them and all the governments involved wanted to keep it a secret...why? The US was on friendly terms with the Russians as we have given them loans since the 1860s. France had nothing to hide with its deals with the Russians as the surviving Romanovs fled there in 17-18.
So why the secrecy? You claim that the government of Russia could not withstand the loss of such a large loan and that Nicholas II was on his last legs due to the revolution of 06 and the empire's defeat at the hands of the Japanese. As mentioned above this is not true as the government was modernizing and the economy was booming. The social unrest had been quelled. It's leaders exiled or executed leaving the socialists leaderless and without power. Yet you claim that such a large loss would topple his government which is not true.
Two World Wars later a couple dozen ships that WERE loaded with Gold, Silver, and Platinum that WERE on top secret missions had been torpedoed and sunk, WERE WELL known to have carried precious metals WERE detailed and put on the record. Name me one gold ship that has been found where the cargo manifest makes no mention of the gold or other precious metal and was purposely covered up. There was not nor still have any reason to hide such a massive shipment. Who would have insured such a large shipment and why isn't it recorded ANYWHERE?
Ok, for purposes of this discussion, let's set aside the $800,000 US Navy funds aboard RMS Republic, now professionally appraised at $200,000,000. Let's focus on the big money ...
Yes, I understand your desire, ignorance is bliss. You can start with the January 22, 1909 $240,000,000 Bond issue floated in Europe (the same day RMS Republic sailed, incidentally). If a private citizen did this, it would be a classic Ponzi scheme. But for a Government ... Russia needed the 50-year $240,000,000 1909 loan in order to pay off the 5-year $150,000,000 1904 war loan coming due in May 1909, and to apply the $90,000,000 surplus specifically to her 1909 budget. I describe the background on Russia's financial need in detail at my website Concealment Motivation | RMS - Republic . The website has the older research, but that will provide more than enough sources to provide historical background. And for those who don't want to read a "biased" book (how would you know until you read it, an assumption), you can start there.
As for losses of gold during WWI and WWII, all government shipments were secret. The acknowledgements of the losses and successful salvages came only AFTER the cargoes had been recovered.
In fact, I found another secret shipment of Japanese gold, proceeds of a war bond Japan floated in NY, shipped from NY to France as a revealed in my 11 year 1904-1914 gold import-export study (referred to in scholarly papers), $22 million, in September, 1905, most likely a sub-rosa payment to Russia for the lands Japanese had seized during the war. No one knew about this, but yet the shipment and gold unequivocally shows up in both public French import data as well as in the Bank of France records. See: Correlation Analysis - 1914 Gold Shortage | RMS - Republic et seq. This includes a cover story placed by the Treasury Department to explain the reason banks were recalling their short term loans - something the market was noticing.
As for secret manifests, you should keep up. The Lusitania's "supplemental" manifest, the one with the munitions, was only recently discovered - only AFTER several diving/salvage expeditions had found munitions NOT on the main "public" manifest.
And now on the issue of insurance, Governments are self-insured entities. Edinburgh is a good example. Britain covered it through their War Risks insurance to 50%. Therefore, Russian still suffered a 50% of the loss. Government assets are so wide and extensive that premiums paid would exceed any actual losses - that's why they self insure or insure with a captive insurance agency - it's a fiscally sound policy.
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The quality show is coming. I am sure everyone on this thread knows a 300+ foot DSV w/ 18 man dual-bell saturation diving system, a 250+ ton crane, is what is required. B$W was mostly a look-see. A craftsman is only as good as his tools. Coming summer, 2018.
So pray tell why you have not launched a FOIA request to the treasury department on such a MASSIVE loan to a great world power? Why haven't the Russians (federation) laid any claim to such a large shipment of currency? Why are there no records from the French about this loan? Fact of the matter is this, every shipment of gold in a massive quantity has a paper trail. From the Spanish treasure fleets to online orders there is absolute proof of these transactions (not counting illegal trade). When the Russian Empire fell to Lenin and his communist thugs, the new Red government kept detailed files on everything dealing with the finances of the former Russian Empire and now the newly created Soviet Union. The Soviet Union inherited the debts and responsibilities of the former Empire which prompted them to..
1 invade Ukraine and end the independence movement,
2 secure the caucus republics
3 ensure that continued obedience of the central asian territories
4 make sure Japan does not invade Siberia
5 capitalize on the czars wealth to pay foreign debts and loan/ war reparations
Almost every secret came out after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, how come there is no paper trail on their end when it comes to such a massive loan... Somehow paid for in gold? Also that begs the question, how much gold did the US have in early 1909 in the reserves? Wouldnt such a massive amount have been taken from several depositories and at a substantial amount to leave the depository a little short on hard currency?
You keep on saying that because of it's secrecy there is no trail and the fall of multiple governments have allowed this loan to become lost to history. While Spain who kept immaculate records and their treasure shipments top secret can somehow with ease locate records of said shipment in modern day centuries after the event. I'm sure Spain has gone through more regime changes than France and Russia combined. So your argument is brittle at best.
FYI I've read your entire website and all I see is circumstantial evidence with nothing hard to back it up.
1 invade Ukraine and end the independence movement,
2 secure the caucus republics
3 ensure that continued obedience of the central asian territories
4 make sure Japan does not invade Siberia
5 capitalize on the czars wealth to pay foreign debts and loan/ war reparations
Almost every secret came out after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, how come there is no paper trail on their end when it comes to such a massive loan... Somehow paid for in gold? Also that begs the question, how much gold did the US have in early 1909 in the reserves? Wouldnt such a massive amount have been taken from several depositories and at a substantial amount to leave the depository a little short on hard currency?
You keep on saying that because of it's secrecy there is no trail and the fall of multiple governments have allowed this loan to become lost to history. While Spain who kept immaculate records and their treasure shipments top secret can somehow with ease locate records of said shipment in modern day centuries after the event. I'm sure Spain has gone through more regime changes than France and Russia combined. So your argument is brittle at best.
FYI I've read your entire website and all I see is circumstantial evidence with nothing hard to back it up.
Let's see if I can follow you.
Q. So pray tell why you have not launched a FOIA request to the treasury department on such a MASSIVE loan to a great world power?
A. The $240,000,000 4 1/2% Russian Bond was floated in Europe, organized by a syndicate of primarily French bankers. I've been in several of the underwriting bank's archives. The results are in my book The Tsar's Treasure. The Concealment section of my 30+ year old website (which does NOT contain the more up-to-date research in my book), and the conspicuous absence/sanitation of records (for example records indexed, but not found) across multiple countries - describes the issues of source documents very well. See the site map at: Site Map | RMS - Republic for the Concealment issues. These were Russian government securities sold to primarily the French and English public.
Q. Why haven't the Russians (federation) laid any claim to such a large shipment of currency?
A. We were in discussions with the Soviet Union in the 80s, under the incorrect Oceanic shipment theory (the one on the website). They couldn't find any records. See: Source Documents - Financial Specific | RMS - Republic
Q. Why are there no records from the French about this loan?
A. I don't understand this question. The January 22, 1909 4 1/2% $240,000,000 1909 Bond is supported all over the website, is easily verifiable. We also have internal French bank documents including the internal syndicate agreement - when and how Russia was paid. See my book The Tsar's Treasure for more up-to-date research.
Q. Fact of the matter is this, every shipment of gold in a massive quantity has a paper trail.
A. You haven't read my previous response on secret shipments. If the secret $22 million Japanese shipment previously discussed, confirmed as having arrived through French import and Bank of France records as coming from the US - had been lost, there would have been no record of its shipment. Laurentic, Niagara, Empire Manor, Edinburgh - were all secret shipments disclosed only AFTER they were recovered. Munitions on Lusitania, another example.
Q. When the Russian Empire fell to Lenin and his communist thugs, the new Red government kept detailed files on everything dealing with the finances of the former Russian Empire and now the newly created Soviet Union.
A. See the destruction of records by the Tsar in the Concealment section previously cited.. Information regarding Tsarist monies outside of Russian were particularly sanitized/destroyed by Tsarist supporters, so those funds could potentially be used by the Whites for a counter-revolution. The US, too, intervened in Russia. We suspect the attempted 1919 salvage was on behalf of expatriate Whites to fund a counterrevolution.
Q. The Soviet Union inherited the debts and responsibilities of the former Empire which prompted them to..
A. What? You don't know your history. The Bolsheviks repudiated all Tsarist debt. All Tsarist assets in this country were frozen. That situation was not resolved until we recognized the Soviet Union in 1933. See the Roosevelt-Litvinov Agreements. You don't know your Russian history.
Q. Wouldn't such a massive amount have been taken from several depositories and at a substantial amount to leave the depository a little short on hard currency?
A. It took weeks to collect the gold for our Panama Canal Payment (the market expected this), weeks for the secret 1905 Japanese Gold shipment (a cover story placed by the Treasury Department to not panic Wall Street - who couldn't help notice the stringency in the money market and notice the banks recalling their short-term loans), and weeks for the $25 million Russian gold shipment too. Again, the banks were recalling their short-term loans, the market recognized this, and Treasury put out another cover story to placate the markets.
Q. FYI I've read your entire website and all I see is circumstantial evidence with nothing hard to back it up.
A. OK, you know the 30 year old research. Bring yourself up-to-date. We've filled in a lot of blanks in the interim - in my book, and in new material collected after the book. Research is always on-going.
Know your history. Don't spout off "facts" which are not true.
But thanx for the arguments, questions. The strength of our proof is tested in this fashion, the reason I made it all available. Recovery of the cargoes will only validate our proof.
Regards,
.
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I not infrequently have additional thoughts, particularly after having to defend my research.
Research is always on-going.
I was just re-reading The Roosevelt-Litvinov Agreements; The American
View, Donald G. Bishop, 1965. These were the agreements entered into by
the US and Soviet Governments whereby the US formerly recognized the
Soviet Union. One of the issues that would hopefully be resolved was the
significant Tsarist debt owed to the US Government, citizens and
corporations which the Bolsheviks had repudiated - and which remained,
and still remains mostly outstanding to this day.
As you know, the US Government filed a claim in our admiralty action.
That claim can be found here:
The United States' Claim
The US Government stated:
"If gold coin or other specie of gold or legal tender is located aboard
the wreck of the R.M.S. REPUBLIC, claimant, United States of America,
states that it was at the time of the sinking of the R.M.S. REPUBLIC,
and the filing of the complaint herein, and still is, the true and
bonafide sole owner of said goods and cargo, including gold coin or
other specie of gold or legal tender placed aboard the ship on behalf of
Claimant, that no other person is the owner thereof and that title and
ownership interest in said goods and cargo have never been abandoned by
the Claimant, United States of America."
The difficulty I had with this claim, since it was based on "Mr.
Bayerle's good-faith research," is that my research up to that time had
never alleged that all the gold cargoes aboard RMS Republic were solely
owned by the US Government; my research indicated that the US Government
had aboard ONLY a US Navy coin-monies shipment, and the other gold
cargoes were owned by the Russian State Bank.
A resolution to the US Government's perplexing claim exists.
"... in one of the November 16, 1933, agreements, Litvonov agreed to
waive all claim to this property [Tsarist assets in the US], releasing
it and assigning it to the government of the United States." p. 182
The letter reads:
"Washington, November 16, 1933
My dear Mr. President:
Following our conversations I have the honor to inform you that the
Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics agrees that,
preparatory to a final settlement of the claims and counter claims
between the Governments of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and
the United States of America and the claims of their nationals, the
Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will not take any
steps to enforce any decisions of courts or initiate any new litigations
for the amounts admitted to be due or that may be found to be due it, as
the successor of prior Governments of Russia, or otherwise, from
American nationals, including corporations, companies, partnerships, or
associations, and also the claim against the United States of the
Russian Volunteer Fleet, now in litigation in the United States Court of
Claims, and will not object to such amounts being assigned and does
hereby release and assign all such amounts to the Government of the
United States, the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
to be duly notified in each case of any amount realized by the
Government of the United States from such release and assignment.
The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics further
agrees, preparatory to the settlement referred to above, not to make any
claim with respect to:
(a) judgments rendered or that may be rendered by American courts in so
far as they relate to property, or rights, or interests therein, in
which the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or its nationals may have
had or may claim to have an interest; or,
(b) acts done or settlements made by or with the Government of the
United States, or public officials in the United States, or its
nationals, relating to property, credits, or obligations of any
Government of Russia or nationals thereof.
I am, my dear Mr. President,
Very sincerely yours,
MAXIM LITVINOV
People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs,
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"
Since the obligations which were issued for the Russian gold aboard RMS
Republic were repudiated, and Tsarist assets were assigned to the US
Government, and since the US Government was aware of my research on
Tsarist Russian cargoes aboard RMS Republic, the US Government could
claim ownership of all the gold aboard.
Hence, no claim by the Russian Government, and a claim for all the gold by the US Government.
Research is always on-going.
I was just re-reading The Roosevelt-Litvinov Agreements; The American
View, Donald G. Bishop, 1965. These were the agreements entered into by
the US and Soviet Governments whereby the US formerly recognized the
Soviet Union. One of the issues that would hopefully be resolved was the
significant Tsarist debt owed to the US Government, citizens and
corporations which the Bolsheviks had repudiated - and which remained,
and still remains mostly outstanding to this day.
As you know, the US Government filed a claim in our admiralty action.
That claim can be found here:
The United States' Claim
The US Government stated:
"If gold coin or other specie of gold or legal tender is located aboard
the wreck of the R.M.S. REPUBLIC, claimant, United States of America,
states that it was at the time of the sinking of the R.M.S. REPUBLIC,
and the filing of the complaint herein, and still is, the true and
bonafide sole owner of said goods and cargo, including gold coin or
other specie of gold or legal tender placed aboard the ship on behalf of
Claimant, that no other person is the owner thereof and that title and
ownership interest in said goods and cargo have never been abandoned by
the Claimant, United States of America."
The difficulty I had with this claim, since it was based on "Mr.
Bayerle's good-faith research," is that my research up to that time had
never alleged that all the gold cargoes aboard RMS Republic were solely
owned by the US Government; my research indicated that the US Government
had aboard ONLY a US Navy coin-monies shipment, and the other gold
cargoes were owned by the Russian State Bank.
A resolution to the US Government's perplexing claim exists.
"... in one of the November 16, 1933, agreements, Litvonov agreed to
waive all claim to this property [Tsarist assets in the US], releasing
it and assigning it to the government of the United States." p. 182
The letter reads:
"Washington, November 16, 1933
My dear Mr. President:
Following our conversations I have the honor to inform you that the
Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics agrees that,
preparatory to a final settlement of the claims and counter claims
between the Governments of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and
the United States of America and the claims of their nationals, the
Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will not take any
steps to enforce any decisions of courts or initiate any new litigations
for the amounts admitted to be due or that may be found to be due it, as
the successor of prior Governments of Russia, or otherwise, from
American nationals, including corporations, companies, partnerships, or
associations, and also the claim against the United States of the
Russian Volunteer Fleet, now in litigation in the United States Court of
Claims, and will not object to such amounts being assigned and does
hereby release and assign all such amounts to the Government of the
United States, the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
to be duly notified in each case of any amount realized by the
Government of the United States from such release and assignment.
The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics further
agrees, preparatory to the settlement referred to above, not to make any
claim with respect to:
(a) judgments rendered or that may be rendered by American courts in so
far as they relate to property, or rights, or interests therein, in
which the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or its nationals may have
had or may claim to have an interest; or,
(b) acts done or settlements made by or with the Government of the
United States, or public officials in the United States, or its
nationals, relating to property, credits, or obligations of any
Government of Russia or nationals thereof.
I am, my dear Mr. President,
Very sincerely yours,
MAXIM LITVINOV
People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs,
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"
Since the obligations which were issued for the Russian gold aboard RMS
Republic were repudiated, and Tsarist assets were assigned to the US
Government, and since the US Government was aware of my research on
Tsarist Russian cargoes aboard RMS Republic, the US Government could
claim ownership of all the gold aboard.
Hence, no claim by the Russian Government, and a claim for all the gold by the US Government.
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