Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[runsongas]

A higher level of training isn't going to help the LDS if the newly minted OW diver still ends up buying their first set of gear online.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

A higher level of training isn't going to help the LDS if the newly minted OW diver still ends up buying their first set of gear online.

That’s true, but the LDS has the option of charging more for classes if they are good classes and are worth it. Interestingly though, my LDS decided to dump all in house instruction and refer people to a network of independents that have no affiliation with the shop. They decided that there was no money in instruction and it was a loser. So instead they are trying to concentrate on making money by selling overpriced dive gear. I guess competing with the internet and getting undercut when you are held in retail contracts by certain manufacturers is a healthy business plan? Wow, who knew?

 

[drrich2]

In discussions of BP/W vs. Jacket BCDs, one advantage of jackets that's been claimed elsewhere is they're more 'plug and play' - put it on and go. With a BP/W, you'll want to consider back plate options, whether to use integrated weight pouches, get the webbing in it and fitting you right...things that a newbie could use a seasoned hand with onsite.

Seems like the BP/W approach would offer a LDS a chance to get OW students dialed in with a good-fitting setup for training, then offer to sell them one customized to their needs once they finish. By then the student will have had enough coaching and customization, I'd think many would buy it.

Let's say that shop uses Deep 6 regulators, and offers a course to train those so inclined to service their own?

I recall reading of Edd Sorenson doing modifications of a side-mount rig.

What about offering wetsuit modifications like adding pockets, etc...? A lot of people like things done for them.

I wonder how much potential there is for a LDS to customize and value-add to their product such that there's no clear online equivalent?

Richard.

P.S.: This assumes a shop still aims to make some money off gear sales.

 

[boulderjohn]

Another question, how can an agency make a claim that all their OW training is universal around the world when It is not.

it is the same with everything in every area. the standards are universal. What is accomplished in the individual environment is hard to police, because it is too easy for individuals to do their own thing. For example...

• In one high school in which I taught, one of the English teachers said she loved to teach the novel Candide by the French author Voltaire. It was a standard part of the district course Major World Writers. She liked it so much she taught it in Major American Writers, Major British Writers, and pretty much any other course she taught.
• When i was in English graduate school, one of the professors taught the exact same curriculum in two different courses in consecutive semesters, even though the titles of the courses had almost exactly nothing to do with the content he taught.
• When I owned a Toyota a number of years ago, the local dealer was supposed to meet Toyota's exacting standards for quality maintenance, but we soon realized he was cheating at every turn.
• When I owned a Dodge a number of years ago, the local dealer was supposed to meet Dodge's exacting standards for quality maintenance, but we soon realized he was cheating at every turn.
  
• I own a FlexSteel sofa with a lifetime warranty on parts. You have to go to a certified FlexSteel repairman if there is a problem, and we did when it broke down. He told us that for FlexSteel, "lifetime" meant only 8 years, so we would have to pay for the parts. He gave us a bill. We called FlexSteel, and they informed us that for them "lifetime" did indeed mean "lifetime," and it absolutely did not mean "8 years." We did not owe anything for the parts. If we had not called FlexSteel, we would not have known, and their authorized repairman would have made a nice profit on the free parts. (No, I don't know what happened to him after the repairs.)

Dive agencies have quality management systems that TRY to control this, but it is very hard to do unless the individual instructor who is screwing up is not reported. Why did I not report the violations of standards in my class? Because I was so happy to get certified that I did not pay attention to it. My log book had all the requirements spelled out, and when I go back and look at it today, I can see that the instructor signed off on all the skills I did not do. It was not until I became a professional myself that I dug out that old log book and realized what had happened.

 

[boulderjohn]

I recall reading of Edd Sorenson doing modifications of a side-mount rig.

There is very little you can do to customize a standard jacket BCD. BP/W's and the system that Edd Sorenson designed and modified (and which I own, with his modifications) are far simpler in their basic design and are easily modified. that is, in fact, one of the selling points of a BP/W--its simplicity allows for a host of modifications.

 

[boulderjohn]

That’s true, but the LDS has the option of charging more for classes if they are good classes and are worth it.

A few years ago, in one of the endless string of threads on this topic, someone cited a dive shop in Florida that charged a whole lot more than standard for an OW course that offered over-the-top training. It was apparently working. Enough people w4ere interested to make it work. Of course, you do realize, that if the courses take much longer than standard, you have to pay the instructors more than standard, so it does not bring in any real additional income.

 

[drrich2]

That's what I'm thinking; if in OW training a LDS could educate students about & make the case for BP/W, while a BP/W setup can be cheaper than some jacket BCDs, wouldn't it raise the odds that LDS would sell more BCDs (BP/W in this case) to students, instead of the students getting online with LeisurePro, etc...?

Things that are mainly used 'off the rack' make for easy online ordering. Things you need to try on, or get help with fitting, are another story. I'm aware some places may send you a wetsuit, if it doesn't fit send it back for another, but not everyone wants to hassle with that.

The more a LDS can legitimately make its offerings 'not off the rack,' the greater the case to buy for them...if there's true added value.

Richard.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

it is the same with everything in every area. the standards are universal. What is accomplished in the individual environment is hard to police, because it is too easy for individuals to do their own thing. For example...

• In one high school in which I taught, one of the English teachers said she loved to teach the novel Candide by the French author Voltaire. It was a standard part of the district course Major World Writers. She liked it so much she taught it in Major American Writers, Major British Writers, and pretty much any other course she taught.
• When i was in English graduate school, one of the professors taught the exact same curriculum in two different courses in consecutive semesters, even though the titles of the courses had almost exactly nothing to do with the content he taught.
• When I owned a Toyota a number of years ago, the local dealer was supposed to meet Toyota's exacting standards for quality maintenance, but we soon realized he was cheating at every turn.
• When I owned a Dodge a number of years ago, the local dealer was supposed to meet Dodge's exacting standards for quality maintenance, but we soon realized he was cheating at every turn.
  
• I own a FlexSteel sofa with a lifetime warranty on parts. You have to go to a certified FlexSteel repairman if there is a problem, and we did when it broke down. He told us that for FlexSteel, "lifetime" meant only 8 years, so we would have to pay for the parts. He gave us a bill. We called FlexSteel, and they informed us that for them "lifetime" did indeed mean "lifetime," and it absolutely did not mean "8 years." We did not owe anything for the parts. If we had not called FlexSteel, we would not have known, and their authorized repairman would have made a nice profit on the free parts. (No, I don't know what happened to him after the repairs.)

Dive agencies have quality management systems that TRY to control this, but it is very hard to do unless the individual instructor who is screwing up is not reported. Why did I not report the violations of standards in my class? Because I was so happy to get certified that I did not pay attention to it. My log book had all the requirements spelled out, and when I go back and look at it today, I can see that the instructor signed off on all the skills I did not do. It was not until I became a professional myself that I dug out that old log book and realized what had happened.

I know it would never happen, but I once said that dive instruction should be just like getting a drivers license, you can go to any independent school you like but the final test (written and water for fiving) is done by a state or government agency and your card is issued by the state. If drivers licenses were given out by the independent schools as they saw fit like C-cards it would be a colossal disaster.
You also have to be licensed in many other things too like cutting hair and contracting. The state issues the licenses not the teachers.
Diving is a pretty critical activity as I see it, a lot can happen, people can die or get seriously hurt. I think the way it is now is a perfect example of the honor system gone terribly wrong.

 

[tursiops]

my LDS decided to dump all in house instruction and refer people to a network of independents that have no affiliation with the shop. They decided that there was no money in instruction and it was a loser. So instead they are trying to concentrate on making money by selling overpriced dive gear.

It's also possible they were afraid of running afoul of the rules on employees vs contractors.

 

[boulderjohn]

I know it would never happen, but I once said that dive instruction should be just like getting a drivers license, you can go to any independent school you like but the final test (written and water for fiving) is done by a state or government agency and your card is issued by the state. If drivers licenses were given out by the independent schools as they saw fit like C-cards it would be a colossal disaster.
You also have to be licensed in many other things too like cutting hair and contracting. The state issues the licenses not the teachers.
Diving is a pretty critical activity as I see it, a lot can happen, people can die or get seriously hurt. I think the way it is now is a perfect example of the honor system gone terribly wrong.

Ah--so you want to have government control of scuba certifications, do you? Many people would disagree.