Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[Umuntu]

That's not true in the UK.

A club is just a group of people who meet at a free place. Usually a pub. They will occasionally rent swimming pools - which are owned by the local council so who have to let the public use them. They then go to a quarry and do there open water dives. The kit they have is hugely discounted and will usually be a buddy commando bcd - these are fine and last forever. They also get grant money from the lottery here.

There running costs are very little. Each member pays a modest amount to keep it all running. They do not need to have the same levels of H&S as a commercial operation. The system works well actually.

And in addition to the weekly pool followed by pub meet, the club Instructors are volunteers, so your progression as a diver is funded by your modest club fees. Active clubs organise trips to Red Sea / Malta / Gibraltar at club rates. Some of the clubs in coastal areas own their own RIBs, so the dive trips in summer are relatively inexpensive.

Diving with Friends.

 

[boulderjohn]

Cultural question in scuba; we wouldn't wring our hands if Discover Scuba course grad. retention rates were low, would we? After all, that's the course that lets people learn about and try scuba diving, to see whether it's something they want to follow through with.

Maybe we should look at OW training & certification the same way?

In that case, rather than brainstorm as much about retaining a lot more of the people currently certifying, some of the focus might shift to identifying some hypothetical demographic more likely to become committed divers, defining it, and figuring out how to reach it with advertising. Is this doable?

Richard.

I took a Discover Scuba class--two actually. The first time was when i was pretty young and on a tropical vacation. I was enthused and would have gotten certified immediately, except I had an accident that very day that ended that possibility. The second one came about a decade later, and that was the one that renewed that enthusiasm and led me to seek certification. The research has been done on this. A very high percentage of people who get their OW training start with Discover Scuba.

Other research on what gets people into scuba has been done as well. A former ScubaBoard regular published a ton of research on this a few years ago, and it showed that just about the least important incentive for new divers was the desire for rigorous and exciting adventure. Not many people get into scuba for that reason; in fact, it is just about the opposite.

You would think that the major agencies like PADI and SSI and SDI and NAUI would have done research into what is most likely to get people to become certified,wouldn't you? Well, they have. They have been doing that research for decades, often paying a ton of money on that research, and they have been acting on those results. Keep that in mind whenever you see people saying they know better.

 

[Umuntu]

Curious. What “other” reasons?

The biggest complaint I've heard from some is that the training tends to be slow. No PADI wham, bam, thank you Ma'am C- cards in 2-3 days.

The instructors are volunteers with other jobs, and the classroom and confined water training is usually timed to fit within the Clubs weekly meeting schedule. Open water dives will either be in summer in a quarry or on a group trip somewhere warmer. Training is slower, which can be good thing. On the other hand, most training is included within your club fees ...

 

[boulderjohn]

"One member of a club must be an engineer to maintain it". Yep. What else you're forgetting to mention?

The insurance for maintaining the compressor. The place to maintain it. The way to make sure that everyone who uses it is qualified.

A couple of years ago, a man accidentally knocked over a deco tank filled with O2 in his garage. It blew up. (Amazingly enough, he lived.) An analysis of the tank remains showed that the threads had been well greased with silicone, an absolute no-no in an O2 environment. The man had just paid the shop to do an O2 cleaning of his tank and a fill with O2. The tank had turned the job over to an employee with no training on O2 cleaning, and the result was very nearly a fatality. It is astounding that a professional shop would do that. How does a club ensure that only properly trained people work with such equipment?

 

[MichaelMc]

@boulderjohn, with discover divers the entry point and vacation divers much of the population, how can we get them happier *and* safer? Without requiring uber preparation and training. Not to shift the conversation from shop economics, but can more teaching off the bottom help? They would have more fun on the dives and not leave feeling as awkward underwater. Thus want to keep doing it. That is a shift in the control of the community; economics, lower fitness, and the wealth of other options are not. (Edit: plus 100 brick+online stores is likely too many.)

 

[HantsDiver]

Curious. What “other” reasons?

I don't like the idea of a "diving officer" or someone who tells me what I can or cannot do.

Diving solo on air to 100m is both dangerous and stupid. But I am a big enough boy to realize that. And I would end up arguing very quickly if someone presumed to tell me what I could or could not do in my leisure activities.

 

[StefinSB]

I dive Monterey damn near weekly if not more. It's the money...

Local shop on Cannery row was sold now it's closing down. I had looked into buying it and had a chance to look at some of the numbers. Rent alone was 3800 plus 600 for some kind of building maint fee and from the look of the building the money isn't going there.... So at $4400 , stop right there... Ain't gonna make it. Cost of doing business in California is staggering. Diving business is thin at best and getting thinner.

Fills have been historically a loss leader to get people into a shop. Cost of fills needs to go up to reflect it's true cost. Divers are weird about fills... They pay 10k for dive gear or more, take a day off work, drive 2 hours, $5 dollar bridge tolls, $200 a night for a crappy hotel, 6 dollar coffees, $12 for parking...... But oh no 5 bucks for a fill and they whine about it.

Cali penalizes the working class so bad most of my friends can no longer afford to dive. My little house is 2500 a month, gas 4 a gallon, massive sales tax, very high energy cost the list goes on. Sure one can make allot of money here but if you only make 100K a year you better have a few room mates to get by.

Not sure where you get your numbers from but if every diver would spend 10 grand or more on dive gear as you claim the shops may be frolicking.

 

[HantsDiver]

The point is that if I feel like diving in the local cold muck I can go to my LDS and rent everything including full tank. And I don't do that often enough for them to make ends meet. With the club system, I have to buy my own everything including compressor with its own semi-detached house, and still rent the stuff where I actually dive: remote warm water destinations. Now explain to me how I would support the club system more than I am supporting my local LDS?

"One member of a club must be an engineer to maintain it". Yep. What else you're forgetting to mention?

I never said they must be. BSAC run courses to teach there members to maintain them. Or they could simply use club subs to pay someone to do it...

 

[Umuntu]

The insurance for maintaining the compressor. The place to maintain it. The way to make sure that everyone who uses it is qualified.

Insurance premiums in the UK and EU are substantially lower than the USA. Attributable mostly to National Healthcare keeping medical bills lower, no jury trials for personal injury claims and as a consequence lower, more reasoned, payouts for legitimate claims.

Some third party insurance for club sponsored activities is included in BSAC membership.

My local club doesn't have its own compressor, but does have an arrangement with a LDS for special discounted rates on fills, hydros, VIPs and servicing.

Equipment purchases are often funnelled through a LDS who combines it with their own orders and gets bigger quantity discounts. Members are usually invited to tag along and add personal orders to the club orders at the same discounted rates. We're not in competition with the LDSs in the area.

 

[HantsDiver]

The insurance for maintaining the compressor. The place to maintain it. The way to make sure that everyone who uses it is qualified.

A couple of years ago, a man accidentally knocked over a deco tank filled with O2 in his garage. It blew up. (Amazingly enough, he lived.) An analysis of the tank remains showed that the threads had been well greased with silicone, an absolute no-no in an O2 environment. The man had just paid the shop to do an O2 cleaning of his tank and a fill with O2. The tank had turned the job over to an employee with no training on O2 cleaning, and the result was very nearly a fatality. It is astounding that a professional shop would do that. How does a club ensure that only properly trained people work with such equipment?

You don't need insurance like that to maintain a compressor in the UK. Different place, different rules. And as they are not considered a commercial entity they have less rules than for-profit diving organizations.

And to make sure they are qualified to use it... They are a training club. You do a course run at no profit for very little and you can then use it. It's an amazing concept that I don't think an American can understand.

Hydro/o2 cleaning isn't usually done in house. But members generally have their own tanks in the UK. The club might have a few - and the cost of keeping the ticket in date on these is not that great.