"Big Brother" of regulators

[agstreet]

thethumper once bubbled...
Here's an email I received from the powers that be @ Poseidon. Have a look & this.



Therefore we kindly ask you to remove the Poseidon service manual from your website.


Vänligen / Best regards
Poseidon Diving Systems
Mattias Sahlin
Sales Scandinavia
Tel: 0046-(0)31-7342900
Fax: 0046-(0)31-7342901
Mob: 0046-(0)707-260626
mattias.sahlin@poseidon.se
www.poseidon.se

At least they asked nicely

The copyright issue that's been raised is real, although the logistics of a Swedish company enforcing it's copyrights against an individual's US based website might make it more trouble than it's worth. I like the suggestion to remove the obvious link but make the PDF available to those who know enough to ask.

 

[thethumper]

While I have/had no thought of monetary gains, I put this on my site because of the high volume of requests for it. I understand the copyright issue. However, I don't truly know where this manual came from. I pulled it from another site 2 years ago & posted it shortly after that. I did have a certified tech review it & was told it was a good reference. While I don't wish harm to ANYONE, I also am one who doesn't believe individuals should be dictated to either. All I wanted this manual for is for general field adjustments/repairs. If I'm going to have it serviced, I'll take it & have it serviced.

I may not rebuild motors & restore cars anymore, but I bought a repair manual for my new Toyota pick up so I can do basic repairs. If there's something that need to be done I can't or don't want to do, I can look it up & see what there doing, what parts it requires & how much time it takes. "Fore warned is fore armed."

I'm not sure what I'm going to do just yet. But it's funny that it took 2 years for them to find it.

 

[Diversauras]

Genesis once bubbled...


Would you buy a car if you couldn't get parts, or service information, or get it fixed anywhere except from the selling dealer?

No?

Then why will you buy scube equipment under the same terms?

Oh, because you "have to"?

No you don't.

A Poseidon that is, Odin, and have never had a problem getting it serviced, I just don't care to do it myself, and don't find the price of service excessive.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

thethumper once bubbled...
While I have/had no thought of monetary gains, I put this on my site because of the high volume of requests for it. I understand the copyright issue. However, I don't truly know where this manual came from. I pulled it from another site 2 years ago & posted it shortly after that. I did have a certified tech review it & was told it was a good reference. While I don't wish harm to ANYONE, I also am one who doesn't believe individuals should be dictated to either. All I wanted this manual for is for general field adjustments/repairs. If I'm going to have it serviced, I'll take it & have it serviced.

I may not rebuild motors & restore cars anymore, but I bought a repair manual for my new Toyota pick up so I can do basic repairs. If there's something that need to be done I can't or don't want to do, I can look it up & see what there doing, what parts it requires & how much time it takes. "Fore warned is fore armed."

I'm not sure what I'm going to do just yet. But it's funny that it took 2 years for them to find it.

FWIW, I'm not suggesting that you did anything that was intentionally wrong or that you are trying to profit off of the manual. Its obvious that you were doing this merely to put out information.

However, the manner in which information is expressed is a commodity. It is the owner's right to control how that information is disseminated and to profit from it. Moreover, insofar as the manufacturer could be sued if someone were injured using the information, it is sound policy to control the information flow.

Think about it this way. If someone were hurt using the manual on your site, they might chase you. It is far more likely that they will chase the manufacturer, who has more money and is probably insured. Viewed in this light, it is obvious that there are sound reasons why the manufacturer does not want its manuals made available to the general public.

 

[ElectricZombie]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Just don't buy regs from companies that won't sell parts or manuals.

I can't think of a reg company that will sell parts or manuals.

 

[DeepScuba]

I can see this could get heated, but here's my cool 2 cents..

NorthEastWr: I can't imagine, even in the good Ole US of A where somebody could hurt themselves after performing their own maintenance, and then sue the Manufacturer after getting the manual from some guys' web site.

C'mon man, that would never lead to any liability for these manufacturers.

I agree with your views of "ownership" rights etc of the literature, but I chose Genesis's side simply because of the arrogance of the manufactureres.

I realize we are "Scuba blinded", but as posted by Genesis, the car makers do not do this, they cannot by law, and probably the manufacturers of dive equipment cannot by law, deny maintenance kits and parts to customers they sell to. THey do it anyways, and get away with it.

There's no comparision as to the amount of people one incident could realistically kill when it comes to reg maintenance vs., say car repair.

1 bad reg would equal maybe 2 deaths, possibly 3, realisitcally only 1.

One bad brake job could kill 3 car loads of people on a highway.

One is no more "special" or "scientific", or "high-tech" than the other. These days you need special tools to start the damn car for Pete Sake!!!

As Genesis also says, Airspeed seemsto be doing quite fine with "their own" rendition of what their own reg's look like. Like it or not, at least for now, that is legal. I can dismantle my regs, draw a diagram, add some part numbers, O-ring sizes and torque specs, IP pressures I've found etc at will, and then give them away if I want to.

Maybe all that that Poseidon manual needs is a few hand drawn and self-written sections to it!!!

Poseidon should roll with the punches, because good or bad, with the invention of "the Net" everything is for the taking, and wasting time and money on one lone gunner will only bring more cowboys to the party. HEY I'm here!

Case in point, Napster........a hollow victory for the record companies..........who doesn't get the same stuff from Kazaa now?

Ya gotta laugh, it ain't worth the fight or the excessive words written here

 

[MikeFerrara]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...


I can't think of a reg company that will sell parts or manuals.

That would be my point! The whole thing is an effort to not only force you to go to a LDS for service but it's an attempt by the manufacturer to force you into a LDS of THEIR choosing (one that sells and stacks their products). You can't be authorized to service a manufacturers regs unless you're a dealer and the manufacturer often tells you what you must stock, how much and what other stuff you hang next to it. They're forcing you to look at their stuff.

Why don't some of you folks ask one of the manufacturers what their tech training is like? It's a total joke. Their are many avid divers on this board who know tons more about regs than most LDS techs. I have had companies provide ZERO training and I have had sessions that consisted of being handed a manual and going out to dinner and drinks. The argument that it has anything at all to do with safety is BS and I defy any of them to stand in front of me and even attempt to make the argument!

Yet...Divers will piss and moan about all the things that the LDS does and punish them while they let the manuifacturers off the hook and continue to buy their products online.

For what? almost 2 years I've tried to tell you folks what really goes on and most just don't get it.

Divers will continue to let their instruments and their feet drag the silt and the reef while they buy equipment online and think their getting away with something or outsmarting somebody when in reality their doing exactly what the manufacturer wants and, in fact, has manipulated them into doing. Got news folks, the manufacturer doesn't particularly want people who really know diving in this business. I only wish I had some of the lectures I've gotten from manufacturers sales reps on tape.

If I didn't have so much money sunk into it I would think it the ultimate joke. Yall have been HAD.

 

[Genesis]

other than pissing on the LDS, which is complicit in this game.

Seems that there isn't one, other than giving up diving.

Concerted cooperative pressure will work, but that requires supporting things like what I'm doing - whether you advertise it or not.

So far the word seems to be "not", but the sales at LP seem to say its happening "silently" anyway. Is some of that due to the imlpicit (and sometimes EXPLICIT) threats by LDSs against divers who "go their own way"? Who knows.

 

[DeepScuba]

I'll advertise on your behalf Genesis. I think I've read enough of your posts on this specific topic to know that I am squarely in your corner.

I'm not wanting to get into trouble with the guys at my LDS, as some post here, but I think they wouldn't mind if I tell you all the following.........any dope with the knowledge of which end of a screwdriver to hold, could service their regs just as well as almost all LDS's out there. Simply by the fact that no-one cares more for your equipment than you do. You will take the time required to thoroughly clean and inspect everything. Lube appropriately and give the reg the tender finesse it desires.........

You care more, end of story.

Do I do it for anyone else?? Not a chance.

Could I??? Yes

Would I??? No.

Thanks for the insight MikeFerrara.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
other than pissing on the LDS, which is complicit in this game.

Seems that there isn't one, other than giving up diving.

Concerted cooperative pressure will work, but that requires supporting things like what I'm doing - whether you advertise it or not.

So far the word seems to be "not", but the sales at LP seem to say its happening "silently" anyway. Is some of that due to the imlpicit (and sometimes EXPLICIT) threats by LDSs against divers who "go their own way"? Who knows.

Well, I don't have an option at least not a quick one. If I did I wouldn't be going home without my money. A start might be to be consistant within your own logic. Divers seem to know that the LDS prices aren't any good. They suspect evil doing everytime a tank is condemed or a visual inspection is required for an air fill. Yet some how they think the training they're recieving is ok. Yo folks! if their ripping you off with everything else their likely getting you with that too. The manufacturers encourage it as long as it sells theeir new pretty bc with the new funny colored zippered pockets that you'll never be able to do a decent job of diving in no matter how good you are. But it's ok cuz most will never know the difference while you're overweighted and plastered to the bottom.

Maybe LP is doing good but so are the shops that are good at the game cuz they get em before they wise up.

BTW, we did let folks know about your efforts. The problem I had is that if I signed it I would have to toss out every line I had and wouldn't pay the rent. Now I don't have the rent to pay. LOL and I can sign what I want.

BTW, how many did sign? Not many right? You know why? because people don't have a clue and they don't want to have a clue.