Benefit of Nitrox?

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The body only need s certain amount of oxygen, and we get that breathing air. If you get way too much, thus oxtox and convulsions. If breathing nitrox at the prescribed depths, you take in more oxygen than needed. So does that mean that the extra oxygen to tissues makes you feel better? Have studies on divers been done regarding the physiology of this, or is feeling better just psychological?
 
The body only need s certain amount of oxygen, and we get that breathing air. If you get way too much, thus oxtox and convulsions. I

Did you read any of the articles that explain the benefits of hyperbaric oxygen therapy? You seem to be suggesting that it cannot have any benefits. If so, why is it being used?
 
2000 anecdotes are still anecdotes.

Sure. But after a while one inevitably has to look at the sum of human experience against a couple of small studies. People love to use the word "anecdote" to disparage collective experience, especially when that collective experience suggests the results of what they did in the lab (or more likely the analysis of what they did in a lab) produced an inaccurate conclusion. In my experience no one is more prickly that a researcher defending their conclusions.
 
Did you read any of the articles that explain the benefits of hyperbaric oxygen therapy? You seem to be suggesting that it cannot have any benefits. If so, why is it being used?
I went back and read them all. It seems the treatments are for people already having medical problems. We know breathing O2 or even nitrox is prescribed for DCS. I can't recall the exact physiology, but logically it would help with DCS because you are taking in less (or no) nitrogen, so what's in you can get out easier. But I don't know if this has anything to do with a completely healthy person feeling better on nitrox.
 
I have for a number of years had a question that I hope someone with better medical knowledge than I have can explain for me.

When a friend of mine got bent and had to go through a serious of hyperbaric treatments, he was never alone in the chamber. Others were getting treatments as well, but none of them were being treated for anything related to diving. In fact, many hospitals with hyperbaric chambers will not treat DCS victims, reserving their use for patients with a wide variety of other ailments. When he played with the Denver Broncos, linebacker Bill Romanowski owned his own chamber and used it to speed recovery after every game. Here are some highly reputable medical web sites describing the benefits to the healing body of hyperbaric oxygen therapy:

Hyperbaric oxygen therapy - Mayo Clinic
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002375.htm
Medscape: Medscape Access
Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy for Wound Healing | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library

So here's the question: why does inhaling elevated oxygen under pressure have such well proven benefits to the body when done in a hyperbaric chamber, yet it has no such effect when done under water?
The patients aren't being treated to make them "feel better". I'm also not sure of what the exact treatment is. Is is 100% oxygen at 3 atmospheres? You can't do that underwater.

Just because something helps burn victims doesn't mean it has any effect on non-burn victims.
 
Sure. But after a while one inevitably has to look at the sum of human experience against a couple of small studies. People love to use the word "anecdote" to disparage collective experience, especially when that collective experience suggests the results of what they did in the lab (or more likely the analysis of what they did in a lab) produced an inaccurate conclusion. In my experience no one is more prickly that a researcher defending their conclusions.
There is a big difference between "collective experience" and lab research. In research you need to find results, repeat often and find the same results. After completion of your study it requires peer review and you need to prove that A+B=C. You can't just say it because you hear everyone else say that. That's not science, it's religion.
 
I have for a number of years had a question that I hope someone with better medical knowledge than I have can explain for me.

When a friend of mine got bent and had to go through a serious of hyperbaric treatments, he was never alone in the chamber. Others were getting treatments as well, but none of them were being treated for anything related to diving. In fact, many hospitals with hyperbaric chambers will not treat DCS victims, reserving their use for patients with a wide variety of other ailments. When he played with the Denver Broncos, linebacker Bill Romanowski owned his own chamber and used it to speed recovery after every game. Here are some highly reputable medical web sites describing the benefits to the healing body of hyperbaric oxygen therapy:

Hyperbaric oxygen therapy - Mayo Clinic
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002375.htm
Medscape: Medscape Access
Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy for Wound Healing | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library

So here's the question: why does inhaling elevated oxygen under pressure have such well proven benefits to the body when done in a hyperbaric chamber, yet it has no such effect when done under water?

My understanding is the treatments are used for a variety of aliments, not to be a wise guy like I usually am but among of those aliments isn't "feeling less bad". Although if the treatment works that just maybe the case! Wounds that will not heal are often healed with these treatments. I know someone who did just that post amputation due to diabetes.

---------- Post added September 12th, 2015 at 07:55 PM ----------

There is a big difference between "collective experience" and lab research. In research you need to find results, repeat often and find the same results. After completion of your study it requires peer review and you need to prove that A+B=C. You can't just say it because you hear everyone else say that. That's not science, it's religion.

I would have agreed with you before reading Andy's posts. Now however I can see where someone that maybe doesn't ascend slowly enough or stop long enough during ascents could feel better or less bad at the end of a dive using nitrox. Of course as Andy pointed out the same could be accomplished by changing ascent rates and more and/or longer stops. So one could say it isn't the nitrox but, one could say it is too!
 
Never. 2000 anecdotes are still anecdotes.

I believe that it was TS&M that said the plural of "anecdote" was not "data". But she thought she felt better diving nitrox.
 
There is a big difference between "collective experience" and lab research. In research you need to find results, repeat often and find the same results. After completion of your study it requires peer review and you need to prove that A+B=C. You can't just say it because you hear everyone else say that. That's not science, it's religion.

The problem is that they have yet to study to ascertain whether the collective experience is accurate. Both studies so far were different, so even though the headline from both were the same they did not actually repeat the same data. Since the scientific community defines terms more precisely, it can be like the second study where they studied fatigue, that they found no difference in fatigue, however they noticed that the divers on Nitrox felt better, but that was not the the point of their study so no scientific study results . The "collective experience" could very well be correct, except the terms us unenlightened use are not precise enough for the scientific community. Hey, everyone has to protect their rice bowl.


Bob
 
The scientific method can be a powerful tool for weighing the evidence & exploring for truth. But it's not perfect, particularly as applied by humans (often paid for by an agency with a stake in the results, performed by researchers with expectations, etc...). The quality of research varies widely (e.g.: should we assume chamber dives are a reliable representative of actual dives? Should the chamber folks be doing exercises to more closely match real divers?). Even studies that look good are sometimes 'disproven' (or at least contradicted) by later studies. And the scientific community tries to err on the side of avoiding false positive findings. For example, the standard I was taught is that statistical testing to determine whether a finding (difference between study groups) is statistically (may not be of practical importance) significant is to determine whether the odds of random chance accounting for the findings is no more than 5%.

RJP already outlined the serious hardships that would be faced in implementing a rigorous prospective double-blind placebo controlled scientific study reasonably expected to show a difference (if there is one) & r/o random chance to the level of being under 5% likely to account for that difference.

So we may never get the 'scientific evidence' that nitrox helps a significant portion (even if a minority) of divers feel better.

While we don't want to see nitrox peddled as a modern day 'snake oil,' at the same time be mindful much of what we experience and deem true in life has not been substantiated by scientific research & published in a peer reviewed journal. If I stump my toe, it hurts. My experience of that is anecdotal; I haven't seen an article showing that's been proven. Do I just think it hurts? No; I know it does. Put another way, imagine that you refused to believe anything that had not been scientifically established in a peer reviewed professional journal. You'd be too ignorant to function in daily life.

Let's take a look at some description from some research links RJP posted:

In this double blinded, randomized controlled study 11 divers breathed either air or Enriched Air Nitrox 36% (oxygen 36%, nitrogen 64%) during an 18 msw (281 kPa(a)) dry chamber dive for a bottom time of 40 minutes. Two periods of exercise were performed during the dive. Divers were assessed before and after each dive using the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory-20, a visual analogue scale, Digit Span Tests, Stroop Tests, and Divers Health Survey (DHS). Diving to 18m produced no measurable difference in fatigue, attention levels, ability to concentrate or DHS scores, following dives using either breathing gas.

One dive? Chamber? Only 11 divers?

The purpose of this double-blind study was to compare subjective fatigue levels experienced by SCUBA divers after two repetitive air dives and two repetitive EAN36 dives on separate, nonconsecutive days. Eleven male participants completed pre- and post-dive fatigue assessment using the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory and a Visual Analogue Scale, while general health was assessed using the Diver Health Survey. Divers did tend to be more fatigued after diving; however, breathing gas mixture exhibited no statistically significant effect. Participants did have significantly lower Diver Health Survey scores upon the conclusion of EAN36 test sessions, possibly indicative of reduced decompression stress.

2 Dives? And still just 11 people.

Seems to me we need people diving more like instructors teaching classes or people shore diving Bonaire (e.g.: exercising & mentally stimulated teaching students, or hauling gear around & walking in & out), and doing something more like 5 or 6 dives per day for a few days running.

Someone in an older thread debating this issue compared it to doing a study of whether beer is more likely to be intoxicating than root beer, and giving your study groups just one glass. Then, when one beer makes nobody drunk, claiming your study shows no difference.

Richard.
 
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