Belize: Death of Corey Monk

[pilot fish]

This guy Peter does not play around. You must run a safe dive op.

Would you have let this poor diver do a night dive alone, as it was described here?

You're talking absolute rubbish, and I suspect you know it. The industry is pretty well agreed on appropriate and usable rules for what redundant gear should be carried. Not 100%, but certainly 90%. Sure, there is no such thing as perfect redundancy and despite your preparations you may come unstuck, but that's no justification for ignoring the recommendations completely.
Not so. I am obliged by law to try to find/help/save/recover you if you were diving with my operation. And I can be held criminally liable if the authorities believe I was in any way responsible for or compliant with what happened to you. That's true here in Belize, I know it's true in Britain, and I'm sure it's true in the US. It's true in the Egyptian Red Sea. And in the Maldives. And in Australia. In fact, I think it's true in every country I've ever dived in.

It's very simple - if I know of your attitude before I take you out you'll be looking for another operator. And since I'll feel duty bound to warn others you may have a long search. And your first dive with me when you behave seriously irresponsibly will be your last.

We live in a society in which we look out for each other. Society norm provides that the emergency services WILL look for you and try to save you, and that is enshrined in law and practice in most civilised countries. I'm not familiar with detail of law in the US, but in Britain if by your reckless behaviour you do endanger people you should reasonably have expected would try to save you you can be held responsible to them. Suppose by your own reckless driving you're in a car crash - do you think that EMS will try to get you out? If they're hurt is that their responsibility or yours? What if your house catches fire?

The expression "no man is an island" is absolutely true these days.

 

[Waterskier1]

I was only referring to the locator part- sending out a signal that will make recovery of lost divers easier- global positioning? Have a computer chip in bc, kind of thing. My guess is that would add a lot of cost to a dive? Don't they put puter chips in pets to help find them when thy're lost?

There are many technical problems. First, the type of chip you would put in a pet would only work if the scanner were withing a few inches, maybe feet, of the chip, above water. Water attenuates radio waves. It is doubtful that you would be able to detect anything from the surface more than a foot or two deep, if you had a good detector at the surface. Therein lies the second problem. Everyone involved would have to have a detector. Those would be the really expensive portion of the system. And again, it wouldn't work for more than a few feet. I guess you could supply everyone with a huge "space blanket" type of thing they could deploy, and sonar or other underwater ranging system could be developed to detect its presence. But then, you'd have to be able to deploy that in an emergency, and if you could, probably dropping weights and hitting the BC inflater would be easier/quicker.

At the surface, the EPIRBs or something similar would be a good choice. They are quite expensive, and the ones without GPS take over an hour to locate. (It takes a couple passes of the satellites to get a fix, and these satellites are not in geosynchronous orbit.

Most of the underwater searches I have been on, where divers couldn't find anything because of visibility, depth, or other circumstances, used a ROV. The one I'm familiar with uses ultrasonic and other sensor, and once the victim is located, can actually grab on and bring him to the surface. This was remotely operated and was tethered to the vessel it was operated from. These are typically flown into areas when needed, but also they are stationed in areas where their use is likely. I have not seen one operate below 100 feet, so I don't know their limit. I think the tether is quite a bit longer, but they run "search patterns" with it, so it could be over 200-ft laterally away, but only 50-ft deep.

 

[sweatfrog]

In the UK at instructor level you must have an annual medical, and that medical has to be performed by one of a handful of doctors country-wide specially trained and certified by a government agency (the HSE, sort of like OSHA but with much bigger and sharper teeth). Mine used to take at least 90 minutes, and was really useful as a general health check. From what I can gather about the US any doctor can do a dive instructor's medical, so it's no surprise if things slip through the net.

Hello Peter, I haven't seen you since we dove some coral spawning together (225) in 05'. Hope you're doing well on Ambergris.

In Australia any 'yes' answers on a medical preclude you from diving, until you get a physical from an Ausi Doctor. That's even if you have an approved medical from a doctor in the US. I don't know about other parts of the UK.

When you're already on the liveaboard, that makes it kind of tough time wise, not to mention the financial burden put upon people to go on one of those trips and spend extra time getting something they have already paid for. People shouldn't be forced to lie by idiotic government practices.

We don't need more laws. That will never stop people from being irresponsible, no matter what they are doing.

 

[sweatfrog]

At the surface, the EPIRBs or something similar would be a good choice. They are quite expensive, and the ones without GPS take over an hour to locate. (It takes a couple passes of the satellites to get a fix, and these satellites are not in geosynchronous orbit.

On the Aggressor in Galapagos the divers all carry EPIRBs in waterproof boxes in case they get separated by the current. Safety should come first for all diving operations, but how many do you know that have AED's?

 

[DiverBizz]

What are EPIRBs? By the way AED prices have dropped considerably over the years and now every low middle class family could afford to have one in the home.

 

[cakayakdiver]

Hey on second thought! If the device records the dive profile and is capable of radio communications we could ticket folks for doing dives that the government doesn't think they should do...how cool would that be?...you went too deep/long, that'll be $250...your ascent was too fast, that'll be $150 and your diving "license" is suspended until you pass a $300 safe diver update at you local nanny state government office.

Very funny. Certainly this is the best forum for sarcasm. Cory's family will be very thankful.

I added in my suggestion that the device only records the last dive in an attempt to make it so it can't be used as a "Big Brother" device. Perhaps you could come up with some constructive ideas on how this can better be done.

Perhaps legistration is the inappropriate vehicle. The point is that if the devices were attached to all tanks then families all over the world not be left without a body and with so many questions unanswered.

Ask your mom or dad or spouse or children what they think about the situation where you might be lost and something could have been done but wasn't. I'm sure the Monk family is asking these questions. I wish we had answers for them. Answers would certainly be more appropriate than sarcasm.

Personally, I'll be looking into the possibility of finding gear that makes my diving safer, and should something tragic occur, recovery and investigation easier.

Here's a pretty cool device, if someone can figure out a different triggering mechanism that would be appropriate for SCUBA. http://www.benthos.com/pdf/elp362d.pdf

 

[cakayakdiver]

What are EPIRBs? By the way AED prices have dropped considerably over the years and now every low middle class family could afford to have one in the home.

From wikipedia:

* EPIRBs (Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacons) signal maritime distress,
* ELTs (Emergency Locator Transmitters) signal aircraft distress
* PLBs (Personal Locator Beacons) are for personal use and are intended to indicate a person in distress who is away from normal emergency services, e.g., 9-1-1.

 

[divinotter]

I am very sorry to here of the loss of a fellow diver - tragic for any reason/circumstance. There are only a few of us in the world compared to the millions on earth- so we need to care and take care. I have used diver 'black boxes' before and found them very useful. There is a product that started some years ago called the sensus pro that records the last 100 dives in a very small box you clip to your bc and leave there indefinately. You can download it on the computer any time you want and it is very useful in checking profiles by very small incrimants (sp?). I learned a lot using them - we often don't realize how much we bounce when we get interested in a moving target or photography, etc. Anyway, mine says reefnet on it and I'm pretty sure DAN has something similar. It cost $60. Mine was an introductory- get the bugs out one and it didn't clear after 100 dives so I couldn't keep using it- I keep meaning to get another one as they fixed that problem. They would have to recover you body to use it- but it downloads on any computer, also dive computers are sometimes tinkered with - held over the side of the boat to decompress or the battery taken out when violated - this is a sealed box about the size of a silver dollar and an inch thick- you don't even notice it. Also they have dive treckers for only $100 - $200 that you can hang on the side of a boat the other part attaches to you that helps locate the boat in bad vis or bad navigation - I'm thinking maybe it could be used the other way around?

 

[dschonbrun]

the distress beacons are not THAT expensive... Breitling and other companies have them embedded in certain watches, and skiers and climbers regularly get them for off piste ventures.

If we're talking about surface rescues, then the affordability is there. Is the non-surface rescues where the costs rise to have an adequate system.

 

[DiverBizz]

Thanks CAKayakdiver. Got it now.