Being Forced to Buy Equipment AT LDS for Class

[Bonairetrip]

<SNIP> Personally, I avoid every shop that favors one brand over another. You usually only find this out from talking about brands they don't sell, not by looking at the brands they do sell. A simple, "what do you think of <insert brand name here>?" works most of the time. It works for certifications too. You can really tell a lot of character about a person this way. If you get a bad vibe, run... fast... and never look back.


Ken

Generally I agree but...

Few shops are large enough to sell all of the major "brands" let alone stock all of the models within each brand. Some brands limit their distribution to only a few dealers in a geographical area. Some shops tend to be more tech oriented where other ones are not.

Shops sell one brand of gear over another for all sorts of (legitimate) reasons. Sometimes the company (or their distributor) has become difficult to deal with. Increasing minimum orders, pricing policies, how they deal with warranty issues, stock availability are all things shops do consider but that are fairly invisible to the customer.

If you ask about other brands of gear, at least at the two shops I know very well, you will tend to get one of about five answers (depending on the specifics):
a) They are a difficult company to do business with.
b) Equally good stuff (although there are some differences) and we can't stock everything
c) We are considering stocking that brand
d) We went with brand X because...

The "because" has been everything from them being a local company, they think brand x was the better value (and they have specific examples), they think brand x is the better product (and then have several specific reasons why), brand x is what customers have been asking for.

True stories:
I went to buy a new Scubapro Octo at the LDS. He suggested, if I was comfortable having a black rather than yellow octo, that I simply buy a second stage and not the new octo. Same guts in both products but a pretty significant savings.

One a dive trip, I asked the shop about the Scubapro Ti regulator (they had it on display and at a great price) and whether it was worth it. His answer: It is $x more than the same regulator without Ti. They breath the same and adjust the same and both need maintenance. The first stage is about x ounces lighter which doesn't matter in the water but might in your bag if you carrry it on. It is more corrison resistant -- I open up these and the first stage always looks really clean inside. The brass and chrome, if they are rinsed properly, also look really clean. If you don't do well with rinsing them, the Ti does provide some benefit. Only you can decide if that is worth the extra $__ dollars.

 

[jtpwils]

Here are my experiences with shops in the north central NJ area (NYC suburbs):
The prices are to the best of my memory:
Ocean Explorers (Edison): require mask, snorkel, boots, fins, slate, weight belt and weights, OW course = $250, ~$90 for course materials, OW dives = $135, they ask that you buy equipment there because they offer a "money back guarantee" if you start the class and decide to quit but said it isn't required; equipment is not returnable.

Treasure Cove Divers (Westfield): require mask, snorkel, boots, fins, slate, weight belt and weights, OW course = $250, ~$90 for course materials, OW dives = $150 and has additional equipment requirements of hood, dive watch or computer, and knife; they pretty much said I need to buy equipment there but fell just short of saying it was mandatory, neither equipment nor course fee is refundable. After the initial pitch the guy walked me along his "money wall" where he had "diver packages" ranging from $1,600 to a min of about $500 (IIRC)

Underwater Adventures (Short Hills): require mask, snorkel, boots, fins, OW course = $250, ~$90 for course materials, OW dives = $150, they'll supply everything but the above required equipment, buy your equipment where ever you want, fee for discover scuba class is fully credited toward OW class.

Guess who is getting my business? Underwater Adventures. Funny that he's the guy in the highest retail rent district and has the least restrictive policy - Oh - and not only do I plan on buying my training and gear from them, I'll be paying for a private class for both me and my daughter.

ZenDiver3D and JimLap are right on target. Honesty and integrity are the reasons people give them their money, and are probably happy to do it; I know I would be.

 

[Web Monkey]

Ocean Explorers (Edison): require mask, snorkel, boots, fins, slate, weight belt and weights, OW course = $250, ~$90 for course materials, OW dives = $135, they ask that you buy equipment there because they offer a "money back guarantee" if you start the class and decide to quit but said it isn't required; equipment is not returnable.

Treasure Cove Divers (Westfield): require mask, snorkel, boots, fins, slate, weight belt and weights, OW course = $250, ~$90 for course materials, OW dives = $150

Are you serious? You have to buy your own weights for class?:shocked2:

Terry

 

[jtpwils]

Absolutely serious. And judging from everything I'm reading about being a noob I would have been buying more weight than I would actually need.

 

[Stu S.]

Are you serious? You have to buy your own weights for class?:shocked2:

Terry

Our local instructor lends weights to students. He says he comes up 10 pounds short each month. Somebody leaves one behind, or forgets about one in the car trunk, etc.

I traded him 35 pounds of excess weights for a nitrox fill card.

 

[Bonairetrip]

Typical locally is to purchase a mask, open heeled fins, snorkel, booties and gloves. I understand all but the gloves. In other cities, I have heard of mouthpieces.

The tropical place I go the class is $325. And that includes everything (including rental fins, snorkel, mask, etc.) and you are likely to have one on one instruction.

But I have never heard of weights. Or a weight belt! (I can see checking them in/out to individual students and charging them if they are not returned but...)

 

[NJ to FLA]

haha i thought buying a lot of weight was normal! I am 5' 4" 103-105 lbs and by the checkout dives I had 12 lbs of lead on me(4 packs of 2lbs around my waist and 2 packs of 2 on each side in the back). I dive in south florida and only wear a 3mm (for now).. I thought they were saying this for my gain!...

 

[rhone]

Wow, requiring one to purchase weights seems like a big rip off, particularly because people starting out typically use a little extra weight. I understand concerns about weight going missing, but if it's only 10 pounds a class, at wholesale prices, that amounts to very little loss. Anyway, if the shop is really concerned about losing that 10 pounds, it's probably better to rent it out by weight and charge for what doesn't show up at the end of the class.

 

[Scared Silly]

Years ago when I did my class I borrowed gear from a friend who was not diving. I had everything right down to a big ole knife and a dry suit (yes, I dove dry from day one). My instructor said not a problem makes things easier and here is $80 back as that is the cost for renting gear. I used my friends gear for the next three years. All I had to do was fully maintain it.

I think by now the OP gets the idea that they should shop around. Many areas do not have more than one shop so you may be stuck going else where.

 

[Slonda828]

There are MANY independent instructors (not employed by an LDS) - particularly PADI. So, go to a local dive site and ask around about independent instructors. As long as your gear is serviceable, they don't care where you got it.

They may actually rent space and pool time from an LDS but that might be as close as the relationship gets.

I have always thought that instruction should be totally separated from retail. That no instructor should work for, or own, an LDS. Kind of like the LA County program or even the old Y program. You're buying instruction, not locked in to buying equipment in exchange for discounted education.

In that way, scuba instruction would be a lot like driving instruction. In fact, in the automotive world there are 3 entities: the dealers (they don't teach driving), the schools (they don't sell cars) and the DMV that handles testing and registration. Strictly separate issues.

It's pretty easy to have disagreements with LDSs but in the end, the consumer rules. We have money to spend and a choice of where to spend it. Given enough money, we can buy where we want, train where we want (travel costs money) and dive where we want. And, yes, if necessary, we can buy compressors.

An LDS is stuck in one place (or several but still fixed) hoping that someone will bring them money.

Richard

Richard,

It is funny that you mention that. I got so tired of dealing with the drama and politics of a dive shop that we formed our own group of independent instructors and divemasters and did just what you mention above. We now have a compressor, tanks, rental gear, visuals, hydro, the whole 9. The best part is that I never have to act shady with people, because I am not trying to sell gear just to make a living. Plus, we can really take our time with people because we do not have to crank out X number of divers per month just to sell them gear to stay in business. We get to focus on things like what the students want to learn instead of the bare minimum. It is very liberating. Plus I do not have to tow the party line, so to speak.