JeffG
Contributor
mania:
Double 130's with nitrox would be ~-20lb. With helium they would be less.
Al40 with 50% is what?? 1-2lbs negativemania:
Should be neutralmania:
BC full or not - Split from overweight
- Thread starter DeepSeaDan
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Double 130's with nitrox would be ~-20lb. With helium they would be less.
Soggy
Contributor
JeffG:
Heck, on the surface, a scooter should be a wee bit positive!
JeffG
Contributor
Yea..but we are probably talking ounces. My X, just creeps up.Soggy:
Soggy
Contributor
JeffG:
Hence the word "wee". What are you, Canadian?
My sympathies to the diver's family and friends. A death is hard to handle all around.
Walter,
even seasoned and well trained divers can panic. While they are less likely to, I don't believe that this can be attributed to "poor training" by the agencies. I also don't believe that overweighting was the real issue.
Everyone,
As Tracy indicated: PANIC KILLS! I have known divers that ascended from 120 fsw at mach 5 KNOWING that their tanks were empty, only to find 1200 psi left and their regs breathing normally. They were in a situation they should never have been in (lights at the bottom of Blue Spring) and then their mask was blown off by the jets coming out of cork rock. Now this person did in fact exceed their training, but I don't believe that this was the situation here.
The panic cycle is dependent on MANY things, but there is a clear indication that a CO2 build up can and will create a feeling of panic, even in a well trained diver. After all, CO2 is the main trigger for our breathing mechanism. Once panic has hit, there is rarely any real critical thought occuring. If the paniced diver thinks they are over weighted, then dumping ALL of their weight may not really help them. Panic precludes us from thinking straight.
A drowning person always becomes a mountain climber. They are looking for SOME WAY to get out of the suds and onto a safe mountain. Her friend became that mountain at one point and was smart to push away, though I am certain he is feeling remorse at his decision! He shouldn't. We didn't need TWO victims. The PREFERRED approach for a paniced diver on the surface is from behind and below. Strip their weights and inflate the BC and then grab the tank valve, getting them to look UP at the sky.
The issue for a drowning person is that they never fully exhale and clean out the harmful CO2 from their lungs. They keep trying to breathe in, but never breathe out. The CO2 rises and the panic deepens. Thought processes become confused and chaotic giving into more panic. The breathing becomes more ineffectual and the CO2 rises even further triggering painful headaches. It's a cycle that should be broken and broken QUICKLY!!! Stop (Breathe), Analyse the Situation (Breathe) and then ACT (While Breathing again). If you find panic starting to build, exhale all you can, and then exhale some more. Breathe in and REPEAT. Get rid of that CO2
Now, as for Molasses Reef, I know what the current was because I WAS THERE just before the accident. I was diving on Blue Water with Key Largo Brent and Glen. THE CURRENT WAS BAD. In fact, it was the worst I have ever seen on Molasses, and even I came up with a CO2 headache. I even cut my dive WAY short, coming up after only 30 minutes with about 2100 psi left in my tank. It was not fun, and so I called it. No need to WORK when you are diving in the Keys. There were MANY divers being blown off of tag lines and some were in mild distress. The Marine Patrol on duty was also stressed and we saw him throw caution to the wind at times as he was trying to assist divers. This would have been best done as a drift dive, but there were so many moored boats that it was nigh impossible. Our second dive WAS a drift dive on French Reef. Or as Key Largo Brent called it: a mosey dive!
There are many reasons to dissect an incident such as this. Some of them are to see how YOU need to change your diving: that's good. Some of them are to illustrate to others how they need to change their diving: that too, is noble and good. Then we have the finger pointers. These are the ones who want to blame the dive masters, the agencies and most anything that they have an agenda for. Like the poster on SpearBoard, it's hard to take you seriously. No, finger pointing is not against the TOS, but it is counter productive to real learning and understanding. I just had to get that off of my chest. Now I can breathe again.
Walter,
even seasoned and well trained divers can panic. While they are less likely to, I don't believe that this can be attributed to "poor training" by the agencies. I also don't believe that overweighting was the real issue.
Everyone,
As Tracy indicated: PANIC KILLS! I have known divers that ascended from 120 fsw at mach 5 KNOWING that their tanks were empty, only to find 1200 psi left and their regs breathing normally. They were in a situation they should never have been in (lights at the bottom of Blue Spring) and then their mask was blown off by the jets coming out of cork rock. Now this person did in fact exceed their training, but I don't believe that this was the situation here.
The panic cycle is dependent on MANY things, but there is a clear indication that a CO2 build up can and will create a feeling of panic, even in a well trained diver. After all, CO2 is the main trigger for our breathing mechanism. Once panic has hit, there is rarely any real critical thought occuring. If the paniced diver thinks they are over weighted, then dumping ALL of their weight may not really help them. Panic precludes us from thinking straight.
A drowning person always becomes a mountain climber. They are looking for SOME WAY to get out of the suds and onto a safe mountain. Her friend became that mountain at one point and was smart to push away, though I am certain he is feeling remorse at his decision! He shouldn't. We didn't need TWO victims. The PREFERRED approach for a paniced diver on the surface is from behind and below. Strip their weights and inflate the BC and then grab the tank valve, getting them to look UP at the sky.
The issue for a drowning person is that they never fully exhale and clean out the harmful CO2 from their lungs. They keep trying to breathe in, but never breathe out. The CO2 rises and the panic deepens. Thought processes become confused and chaotic giving into more panic. The breathing becomes more ineffectual and the CO2 rises even further triggering painful headaches. It's a cycle that should be broken and broken QUICKLY!!! Stop (Breathe), Analyse the Situation (Breathe) and then ACT (While Breathing again). If you find panic starting to build, exhale all you can, and then exhale some more. Breathe in and REPEAT. Get rid of that CO2
Now, as for Molasses Reef, I know what the current was because I WAS THERE just before the accident. I was diving on Blue Water with Key Largo Brent and Glen. THE CURRENT WAS BAD. In fact, it was the worst I have ever seen on Molasses, and even I came up with a CO2 headache. I even cut my dive WAY short, coming up after only 30 minutes with about 2100 psi left in my tank. It was not fun, and so I called it. No need to WORK when you are diving in the Keys. There were MANY divers being blown off of tag lines and some were in mild distress. The Marine Patrol on duty was also stressed and we saw him throw caution to the wind at times as he was trying to assist divers. This would have been best done as a drift dive, but there were so many moored boats that it was nigh impossible. Our second dive WAS a drift dive on French Reef. Or as Key Largo Brent called it: a mosey dive!
There are many reasons to dissect an incident such as this. Some of them are to see how YOU need to change your diving: that's good. Some of them are to illustrate to others how they need to change their diving: that too, is noble and good. Then we have the finger pointers. These are the ones who want to blame the dive masters, the agencies and most anything that they have an agenda for. Like the poster on SpearBoard, it's hard to take you seriously. No, finger pointing is not against the TOS, but it is counter productive to real learning and understanding. I just had to get that off of my chest. Now I can breathe again.
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Tom Winters:
I guess I'm only half stupid.
I let the boat capt dictate whether I go in inflated or not. I teach my students to listen to the dive briefing. You'll be told everything you need to know. If not, ASK. It usually works for me. Infact, the last place I was told to go in inflated ws the Keys, seems like I was told not to worry about a safety stop either.
Firedive
Registered
Thanks for your post, NetDoc - it said everything I've been thinking as I read this thread.
OP
Walter:
In a perfect world Walter, I'd agree with you. Problem is, it isn't, & humans ( even very smart ones ) make mistakes.
DSD
dumpsterDiver
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I see little reason to enter the water with the BC deflated unless the scuba diver is going to do a rapid, head first surface dive and swim to descend. If there is no urgent need to descend rapidly in this manner, I see no reason for the dive operator NOT to request that the BC be partially inflated. Wth the BC partially inflated, the diver is protected from a multitude of stupid errors: forgeting to turn the tank on, failure to hook the BC inflator up, entering the water with way too much lead, regulator failure, forgeting a critical piece of equipment like a mask etc. etc. It also is just much less intimidating for the diver to be floating at the surface for a few moments until the diver chooses to initiate the descent. If the diver is going to do a feet first ("PADI") descent and staying vertical the dumping of some air from the BC is the most minor of inconvienences and is definitely safer.
When I worked on a commercial charter boat, we would sometimes instruct the customers to suck ALL the air from their BC so that they can immediately descend; but this was only for divers that were prepared to descend very rapidly without any visual reference and drift dive into a wreck in depths of 80 to 110 feet in strong currents. It is clearly a more dangerous way to dive and is an advanced technique that is appropriate in certain conditions. A 25 ft deep reef dive on a tourist boat does not sound like a situation where the BC should be empty on entry.
When I worked on a commercial charter boat, we would sometimes instruct the customers to suck ALL the air from their BC so that they can immediately descend; but this was only for divers that were prepared to descend very rapidly without any visual reference and drift dive into a wreck in depths of 80 to 110 feet in strong currents. It is clearly a more dangerous way to dive and is an advanced technique that is appropriate in certain conditions. A 25 ft deep reef dive on a tourist boat does not sound like a situation where the BC should be empty on entry.
OP
Tom Winters:
...to be positively buoyant on entry:
> Signal topside you are o.k. & ready to dive
> Observe buddy's entry to insure they are o.k. & ready ( if not, you are IMMEDIATELY ready to assist ) ; instantly pair up with said buddy & move off in unison
Tell you what Tom: I've been around this business for 33 years in all manner of conditions / modes, & I truly believe it is my cautious, conservative attitude thats brought me this far. If you view this perspective as "stupid" or that such philosophy makes one "skills deficient", then I guess I'd have to say that it's just so much macho tripe that I thought was dead n' gone by now....
...well, not completely gone, apparently.
DSD
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