My dive shop is bringing in a bunch of suits to try and compare: Bare Radiant and Velocity 5 and 7 mil, Scubapro Everflex 7/5, Sport 7 and 5 mil and definition 5 mil. I will let you know what I think and end up buying. I am looking for something to replace a worn out neosport 5 mil and that will provide greater comfort and warmth.
Bare Reactive Wetsuits--Anyone tried them?
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OP
I went to a shop that sells the Bare reactives. Tried on the 3 mil and 5 mil. Fit was good good but not as good as my Waterproof suit. Like most manufacturers who use ultra-strech neoprene, the Bares rely on stretchiness for fit and offer relatively few sizes, as opposed to tailoring with multiple panels like the Waterproofs, which use less stretchy neoprene but also as a result offer many size variations. Also, the decorative trim was rubber that was glued on to the suit. Could get a nail under the edges at a few spots. Looks good, but I can see it coming off after time . The quality of the construction looked very good, and the neck, wrist and ankle seals were excellent. Regardless of the "infrared" hype, I can see these as being very warm suits simply for the excellent seals, but I did not choose to replace my Waterproof with one of these. They are at the top of the premium price range, and I am not sure they stack up to others in the same range.
The infra-red stuff is pure hype. Once you get away from marketing sites when doing internet research, the actual studies and reviews show no difference in athletic clothing using this "celliant" infra-red reflective material. The fact is that your body generates conductive heat--that is, your body warmth is conducted to air (or water) molecules via direct heating contact. This is why space blankets work, they trap the air around, which is warmed up by your body. Not by "reflecting" light waves back into your body. Same as a wetsuit. You just do not "radiate" infra-red light waves to any large degree. Not enough to transmit out of your skin, tnrough water, into a material, "reflect" back, pass through water again, enter through your skin, and go deep into tissues for warmth. Just not happenin'.
But, hype aside, I can easily see why these suits could be very warm, just because they are well made and well sealed traditional suits. since I did not dive one, I have to defer to others on that.
The infra-red stuff is pure hype. Once you get away from marketing sites when doing internet research, the actual studies and reviews show no difference in athletic clothing using this "celliant" infra-red reflective material. The fact is that your body generates conductive heat--that is, your body warmth is conducted to air (or water) molecules via direct heating contact. This is why space blankets work, they trap the air around, which is warmed up by your body. Not by "reflecting" light waves back into your body. Same as a wetsuit. You just do not "radiate" infra-red light waves to any large degree. Not enough to transmit out of your skin, tnrough water, into a material, "reflect" back, pass through water again, enter through your skin, and go deep into tissues for warmth. Just not happenin'.
But, hype aside, I can easily see why these suits could be very warm, just because they are well made and well sealed traditional suits. since I did not dive one, I have to defer to others on that.
So, you are saying any windproof/waterproof material, the same thickness, would work just as well as a space blanket to keep you warm? I would like offer you a friendly challenge to try that with a space blanket and a large sheet of tin foil and let us know if the tin foil keeps you as warm as the space blanket.
Heating (or cooling) is the transfer of energy from something with a higher temperature to something with a lower temperature. Most of that energy transfer (from an object at human body temperature) occurs via infrared radiation. The actual wavelength depends on the temperature of the radiating body. If the body is hot enough the radiated energy gets into the visible light range.
The rate of heating/cooling is directly proportional to the difference in temperature between the two bodies. No difference in difference = no heating/cooling. Small difference = slow heating/cooling. Big difference = rapid heating/cooling. That is Thermodynamics 101.
If a human body has a layer of air or water against it that is cooler than body temperature then the human body will heat the air/water. If there is a layer of neoprene over the air/water that slows that energy that is transferred from the human body to the air/water from being further transmitted through the neoprene and into the air/water on the other side of it, the effect is that the air/water against your skin stays warmer, slowing the cooling of your body.
If the neoprene layer has something in it that reflects infrared radiation, then the energy radiating from the human body into the air/water, then radiating from the air/water into the neoprene will have some portion reflected back, thus preserving more energy in the air/water and losing less to the air/water on the outside of the neoprene. If the air/water between the neoprene and your skin retains more energy, it stays warmer and the human body inside will also stay warmer.
I'm not saying the Reactive suit DOES reflect IR any more than any other suit. I'm saying IF it does, then it would keep you warmer than a suit that doesn't. Further, the claim that they have a material that does reflect IR is not that far-fetched. And, of course, this all depends on having good seals, because if you're constantly pumping outside water through the suit then the retained energy from reflecting IR will wash right out.
You do realize that night vision optics in use by civilians and the military works based on the IR radiation coming from the person's body, right? That IR is the heat their body is giving off.
Just spent some time trying on wetsuits. I thought the Scubapro everflex 7/5 and definition 5 would be warm and liked the features but the fit was not right. The Scubapro sport 5m was okay. Tried a Bare Reactive and the zipper broke a tooth on the first pull. Not a good start. Store staff mentioned that a Bare Reactive last week had a zipper seam issue. This was enough to steer me away from the Reactive. The Bare Sport flex fit well but was pretty basic. Ended up trying a Henderson Thermaxx 7 mil. For me had the best fit. Still thinking about it but leaning towards the Henderson.
OP
Hi Stuart, Interesting thoughts. As for the tinfoil, it is highly conductive. IF it is against your skin it instantly transmits heat away to the outside. If, however, I made a foil "tent" that would not touch my skin, it could be somewhat more effective because it would trap air, except that it would still transmit heat from the warm air to the outside.. A space blanket is not tinfoil, is thicker, and and is not nearly as conductive. It's a better solution for those reasons. I have no idea if reflects infrared or not, but it operates in air, not in water that absorbs infrared. Don't know of any wetsuits that use space blanket material, so I assume it is not effective underwater. As for night vision, an electronic sensor that is 1 million more times sensitive that human skin, it is no surprise it can detect tiny amounts of infared through air. What about under water?
the research is coming in big time that this celliant stuff is hype even for athletic clothes in air, directly touching skin, with no water layer. This is just like the titanium stuff--no real benefit.
Looking at the Bare prices, I stopped by Wetwear and looked at their custom suits of Rubatex nitrogen-blown neoprene, including their pressure chamber compression test.. No-brainer, that is how I am going when I replace mine.
the research is coming in big time that this celliant stuff is hype even for athletic clothes in air, directly touching skin, with no water layer. This is just like the titanium stuff--no real benefit.
Looking at the Bare prices, I stopped by Wetwear and looked at their custom suits of Rubatex nitrogen-blown neoprene, including their pressure chamber compression test.. No-brainer, that is how I am going when I replace mine.
If you have any links to reports on Celliant testing, please post them. I'd love to read about it.
I keep going back to the Wetwear site to look, too. Neoprene that doesn't compress (much) definitely sounds like a better way to go than super-compressible neoprene with a magic lining.
But, the prices on all of them are definitely what puts me off. I have SP EverFlex suits in 3/2, 5/4, and 7/5. All 3 together only cost me about $500, and they fit me perfectly and seal very well. A Rubatex 3 mm suit is surely more warm than my SP 3/2. But, I can wear the 5/4 when I need that warmth. And save a lot of money. And not feel bad about replacing any of them when the time comes.
OP
Because I live here in Ft. Lauderdale, I visited their store/factory. They had some "stock" size suits available to try on. Their signature feature is the "easy-on" with leg zippers up to the thighs, arm zips up to the elbows, and the diagonal back zipper. Doffing and donning was just unbelievable. So fast and easy, no struggling, pulling, tugging at the ankles, knees, etc. Zip up and its perfectly snug. It's something you can't appreciate the benefit without trying it, of even by looking at their website video. You can open up the arms and legs on the surface to stay cool without removing the suit. They also make a zippered short hood that also just slides on and off with no effort.
The large "felt" like a perfect fit, but Connie pointed our right away adjustments that would be needed for better performance. They take over 50 measurements for the fit! She said I could come in with my plate/wing harness so that they could precisely locate zippers and pockets to assure no conflict. I told her I have a thermolution shirt and she said to wear that as well when I did the fitting, as they could adjust for the battery packs and create something for running the control wire out of the suit. Obviously, they pull out all the stops when making you a suit.
Yes, by the time you add neck-wrist-ankle seals, pockets, colors or other options, you can get pricey. Interestingly Connie told me that, for serious recreational but non-tech divers, she recommends the slightly less expensive nitrogen compressed neoprene as it performs very similarly to the Rubatex at depths to 130'. She also can make an inexpensive suit out of stretch neoprene but absolutely does not recommend it for serious divers, which she considers more than 25 dives a year, or regular dives below 100 feet, as the stretch cannot take repeated heavy compression without wearing out.
For temperature variations, she recommended a shortie suit to go over the main suit, so it gives extra cover to the armpits, core and crotch/femoral artery area. For my Florida diving, she recommended the 3 mil full suit for temps down to the upper 70s, with a 3 mil shortie on top for water temps down to the mid 60's. If I wanted, she could make a "5/3" with a 5 mil "shortie"area and 3 mil arms/legs, but she said that might be too hot for summer diving.
In other words, they can do exactly what you want, and answer pretty much any question you have, and steer you away from bad ideas even if you would spend more.
It also seemed apparent that a suit from them would last pretty much forever given the quality of the neoprene and construction, unless it got damaged in some way. The easy-on and off pretty much gets rid of the stress on seams, seals, and the rubber itself and the construction was very heavy-duty.
So, like you, I an torn between cost and quality. With these, you are getting the highest quality materials, proven to perform, unique features not available anywhere else (the easy-on/off), an incredible amount of personal attention, complete customization with any option you want, hand construction, American-made.
Yet, I could get two top line off the rack suits in different thicknesses (or even three mid-quality stretch suits) for the price of one of these plus shortie. But, I think I am going to save up and go this route.
As for the ceiilant, I did not save any research, just spent a half hour on google. Had to get past almost 4 pages of marketing results to get to non-sponsored comments, and that is when I began to see people saying they really did not see any difference.
The large "felt" like a perfect fit, but Connie pointed our right away adjustments that would be needed for better performance. They take over 50 measurements for the fit! She said I could come in with my plate/wing harness so that they could precisely locate zippers and pockets to assure no conflict. I told her I have a thermolution shirt and she said to wear that as well when I did the fitting, as they could adjust for the battery packs and create something for running the control wire out of the suit. Obviously, they pull out all the stops when making you a suit.
Yes, by the time you add neck-wrist-ankle seals, pockets, colors or other options, you can get pricey. Interestingly Connie told me that, for serious recreational but non-tech divers, she recommends the slightly less expensive nitrogen compressed neoprene as it performs very similarly to the Rubatex at depths to 130'. She also can make an inexpensive suit out of stretch neoprene but absolutely does not recommend it for serious divers, which she considers more than 25 dives a year, or regular dives below 100 feet, as the stretch cannot take repeated heavy compression without wearing out.
For temperature variations, she recommended a shortie suit to go over the main suit, so it gives extra cover to the armpits, core and crotch/femoral artery area. For my Florida diving, she recommended the 3 mil full suit for temps down to the upper 70s, with a 3 mil shortie on top for water temps down to the mid 60's. If I wanted, she could make a "5/3" with a 5 mil "shortie"area and 3 mil arms/legs, but she said that might be too hot for summer diving.
In other words, they can do exactly what you want, and answer pretty much any question you have, and steer you away from bad ideas even if you would spend more.
It also seemed apparent that a suit from them would last pretty much forever given the quality of the neoprene and construction, unless it got damaged in some way. The easy-on and off pretty much gets rid of the stress on seams, seals, and the rubber itself and the construction was very heavy-duty.
So, like you, I an torn between cost and quality. With these, you are getting the highest quality materials, proven to perform, unique features not available anywhere else (the easy-on/off), an incredible amount of personal attention, complete customization with any option you want, hand construction, American-made.
Yet, I could get two top line off the rack suits in different thicknesses (or even three mid-quality stretch suits) for the price of one of these plus shortie. But, I think I am going to save up and go this route.
As for the ceiilant, I did not save any research, just spent a half hour on google. Had to get past almost 4 pages of marketing results to get to non-sponsored comments, and that is when I began to see people saying they really did not see any difference.
I considered this aspect as a reason to spend the money, too. 1 suit for $600 that lasts forever, or 1 suit for $200 that gets replaced every 2 or 3 years. I'm still leaning towards the less expensive suits because my weight tends to fluctuate. I'll get right with my diet and exercise and lose 20 pounds. Then I get lazy and over a year or two, it gradually comes back. I fear a custom Rubatex suit would fit when I got it and then not fit a year or two later. I know. I should be better (a LOT better) at taking care of myself and being consistent with my diet, exercise, and weight. But, I haven't found that ability yet.
I picked one of these suits up from Leisure Pro last week. Got the 7mm for a good discounted price. I was able to try it this weekend. The lake I swam was about 78 degrees around the first 20 feet. And by 30 feet it was around 65. I didn't go any deeper cause I was not wearing a hood/gloves but my core felt great the whole time. The suit is very easy to put on and take off. Also the design is very nice, something in the past I've never really liked from BARE wetsuits. The only thing I wonder though is how is this suit difference then the Velocity Ultra for almost $100 less? From all I can tell the only difference is the No Stitch Technology.
The Reactive suit material is supposed to have technology (i.e. special material) that reflects heat, to keep you warmer.
I would love to try one, but I can't stomach $400+ for a wetsuit. My ScubaPro EverFlex suits (3, 5, and 7) fit me really well and I got them all as NOS for less than $200 each.
If you don't mind me asking, what did LP sell the 7mm Reactive for? If they are getting cheap, I would consider buying a 5mm.
I would love to try one, but I can't stomach $400+ for a wetsuit. My ScubaPro EverFlex suits (3, 5, and 7) fit me really well and I got them all as NOS for less than $200 each.
If you don't mind me asking, what did LP sell the 7mm Reactive for? If they are getting cheap, I would consider buying a 5mm.
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