is that the idiots are SO ingenious!
Banning Bad Equipment
- Thread starter SpyderTek
- Start date
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I completely agree with the "safety nazi" statement. I can't stand it either. The problem with using this as an arguement though implies that we havent already given up this "right". Point in fact, we HAVE already abandoned our ability to chose for ourselves which activities we may participate in at the risk of our own bodily harm.
Cases in point; Seat belt laws, Motorcycle Helmet laws, Skate Boarding on the street, etc etc etc. The list of "for your own good" laws goes on and on in this country and abroad.
I wasn't proposing a governmental agency (or any agency for that matter) I was thinking more along the lines of ermmm, how can I put it, like the way we test cars for impact resistance and give them an "industry safety" rating. I realize the title of this thread had the word "ban" in it and, perhaps, that was a little misleading as to what I was trying to get at.
To use the Cases in points above; instead of having a law that REQUIRES the use of a seat belt we have a notice that comes with the purchase of the car along the lines of "Warning: Safety belts greatly increase the likelyhood of surviving a major accident"
Simular to the warnings on packs of cigarettes.
This way, you still ahve the right to use the item in question but at least you've been warned.
It might be said that "you were warned" when you got certified to dive in the first place. The said fact about this is that for simple things (like spare air for instance) we WERENT warned.
Again, not looking to put my laws on anyone. Just looking for ideas.
SpyderTek
Cases in point; Seat belt laws, Motorcycle Helmet laws, Skate Boarding on the street, etc etc etc. The list of "for your own good" laws goes on and on in this country and abroad.
I wasn't proposing a governmental agency (or any agency for that matter) I was thinking more along the lines of ermmm, how can I put it, like the way we test cars for impact resistance and give them an "industry safety" rating. I realize the title of this thread had the word "ban" in it and, perhaps, that was a little misleading as to what I was trying to get at.
To use the Cases in points above; instead of having a law that REQUIRES the use of a seat belt we have a notice that comes with the purchase of the car along the lines of "Warning: Safety belts greatly increase the likelyhood of surviving a major accident"
Simular to the warnings on packs of cigarettes.
This way, you still ahve the right to use the item in question but at least you've been warned.
It might be said that "you were warned" when you got certified to dive in the first place. The said fact about this is that for simple things (like spare air for instance) we WERENT warned.
Again, not looking to put my laws on anyone. Just looking for ideas.
SpyderTek
Bingo!
So long as I'm in charge, fine. If you want to be in charge, forget it!
Rick
Spydertek,
This is a very interesting topic to which I have no real answer, but let me throw this into the fire:
To ban a piece of gear in today's legal nvironment, you'd probably (I'm not a lawyer) have to show that it harmed someone. Stupid and uneeded products don't matter. To have it be merely and supposedly inadequate is not enough. Can any of us know-it-alls prove conclusively that a specific item of gear ever hurt or killed a diver? Even KN and his rather convincing diatribe against the Whatsit rebreather has no real proof that the product is inherently defective. Yet.
Hell, scuba tanks can be considered dangerous. You can breathe one of those puppies dry if yer not careful. Better ban them.
Regulators can fall right out of your mouth, did you know that? Better ban 'em.
I'd be interested in hearing about products that actually do NOT perform as advertised. As Spyder tek says the much-despised Spare Air pretty much does what they say it will, doesn't it?
Neil
This is a very interesting topic to which I have no real answer, but let me throw this into the fire:
To ban a piece of gear in today's legal nvironment, you'd probably (I'm not a lawyer) have to show that it harmed someone. Stupid and uneeded products don't matter. To have it be merely and supposedly inadequate is not enough. Can any of us know-it-alls prove conclusively that a specific item of gear ever hurt or killed a diver? Even KN and his rather convincing diatribe against the Whatsit rebreather has no real proof that the product is inherently defective. Yet.
Hell, scuba tanks can be considered dangerous. You can breathe one of those puppies dry if yer not careful. Better ban them.
Regulators can fall right out of your mouth, did you know that? Better ban 'em.
I'd be interested in hearing about products that actually do NOT perform as advertised. As Spyder tek says the much-despised Spare Air pretty much does what they say it will, doesn't it?
Neil
Back in the early '70s no one liked compensators...
Later, horsecollars were cool, jackets were strange, then jackets with CO2 inflators were the thing....
Items like the Farallon Shark Dart and the ScubaPro Deco meter, snorkles with pingpong balls on top.
Manufacturers want diversity, some stuff is crap, some stuff pioneers developements into more useful things.
When you've been around long enough, you see products are re-introduced to the new younger market.
I'm just trying to say that ideas about what's dangerous or cool change.
When I started diving, none of the older divers though much of single hose regs. No one would ever use a snap to attach anything to themselves.
Cheers,
Warren
(The other one)
:doctor:
Later, horsecollars were cool, jackets were strange, then jackets with CO2 inflators were the thing....
Items like the Farallon Shark Dart and the ScubaPro Deco meter, snorkles with pingpong balls on top.
Manufacturers want diversity, some stuff is crap, some stuff pioneers developements into more useful things.
When you've been around long enough, you see products are re-introduced to the new younger market.
I'm just trying to say that ideas about what's dangerous or cool change.
When I started diving, none of the older divers though much of single hose regs. No one would ever use a snap to attach anything to themselves.
Cheers,
Warren
(The other one)
:doctor:
CAMPER
Guest
Funny, no one has mentioned that the local LDS's sell this stuff. I can still buy a spare air off his shelf and I'm sure he'll tell me how great it is. They also sell their inventory on ebay, most of the listings with disclaimers are dive stores covering their butts.
If the Dive stores were more accoutable to their customers a lot of questionable stuff would not get into the market in the first place. But then there is always the guy that wants one in purple.
Ed B
If the Dive stores were more accoutable to their customers a lot of questionable stuff would not get into the market in the first place. But then there is always the guy that wants one in purple.
Ed B
Care to unpack that one, Ed? Dive stores carry what they believe their customers want. The dive store lives and dies by its customers. You can't get much more "accountable" than that.
The very first time I think a salesman is pushing something he knows is a bad piece of gear, whether it's a hardware store or a dive store or a drug store, either the salesman goes or I go. Who goes is up to the owner - who won't be one long if he's pushing junk, or allowing his salesfolk to push junk.
Rick
No spare air in my store. I only carry a product if I can keep a streight face while trying to sell it. Maybe I won't make it in retail but there is a fairly short list of the products I can recommend. There is a very very short list of manufacturers I will sell. Nobody who ever took one of my classes would believe I was being truthful if I was trying to sell a designer innertoob as a BC. Even though many people buy and use them, I dont put much energy into selling them. If I ever sell one it is against my advice.
cougar
Contributor
Since items like "Spare Air" exist but have been proven amongst the dive community to be "unsafe", generate a false sense of security, or in any other way deemed a greater
My brotehr, whi is a pilot first adn diver 2nd was touting "spare air" to me. I read these posts and see that there is a problem. But, exactly what is teh natureof the problem? Does "spare air" not work becasue it wasn't meant to be used below a certain depth?? What has happened with it and why is it a bad idea. Is it a good idea to carry something in addition to your tank...why or why not?
...and while I am asking questions. My husband's business partner who has been NAUI certified for 25 years and always knows everything about anything was regaling me with...."What do you do when you run out of air at 100 ft?" I assured him I pay better attention than that...he says" You can unscrew the 1st stage and suck directly on the tank because there's always some air left in the tank...then as you ascend you'll have more yet!"
I raised my doubtful eyebrows and thought. "I think that thinking like this is what makes fish food. I don't think I ever want to buddy with this dude" Am I too cynical or is he full of !@%*?
My brotehr, whi is a pilot first adn diver 2nd was touting "spare air" to me. I read these posts and see that there is a problem. But, exactly what is teh natureof the problem? Does "spare air" not work becasue it wasn't meant to be used below a certain depth?? What has happened with it and why is it a bad idea. Is it a good idea to carry something in addition to your tank...why or why not?
...and while I am asking questions. My husband's business partner who has been NAUI certified for 25 years and always knows everything about anything was regaling me with...."What do you do when you run out of air at 100 ft?" I assured him I pay better attention than that...he says" You can unscrew the 1st stage and suck directly on the tank because there's always some air left in the tank...then as you ascend you'll have more yet!"
I raised my doubtful eyebrows and thought. "I think that thinking like this is what makes fish food. I don't think I ever want to buddy with this dude" Am I too cynical or is he full of !@%*?
FredT
Guest
For what it was designed to do that is.
It is excellent for escaping a copter crash or capsized boat where to get up you have to go down a few feet. It also helps limit aspiration of spilled fuel as the victim makes it to the surface.
Several USCG vessel classes have them in crews quarters and machinery compartments in case of accident. They are also useful for getting copter pilots out of their birds after a crash at sea. Those pontoon things float choppers really well, but they float them upside down in any sea but dead calm! Passengers have a chance to get out on the breath they have when it rolls, the flight crew has a more difficult time getting out, and are often lost unless allowed to grab a couple breaths off a canned air source.
Of course for SCUBA self-rescue in real life, I'd rather blow and go!
FT
It is excellent for escaping a copter crash or capsized boat where to get up you have to go down a few feet. It also helps limit aspiration of spilled fuel as the victim makes it to the surface.
Several USCG vessel classes have them in crews quarters and machinery compartments in case of accident. They are also useful for getting copter pilots out of their birds after a crash at sea. Those pontoon things float choppers really well, but they float them upside down in any sea but dead calm! Passengers have a chance to get out on the breath they have when it rolls, the flight crew has a more difficult time getting out, and are often lost unless allowed to grab a couple breaths off a canned air source.
Of course for SCUBA self-rescue in real life, I'd rather blow and go!
FT
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