Banned from diving for a locked out backup computer?

[Charlie99]

I was with two divemasters, one master diver, and a guy who is contracted to the Department of Homeland Security to do national callout rescue diving, and shortly after our trip, did so following the hurricane. The master diver was my former assistant chief and headed our dive rescue/recovery team for 10 years. I would trust some of these guys with my life.

You did trust these guys with your life. It also sounds like you were aware of that and made a conscious choice to do so, rather than doing so out of ignorance.

I regularly choose to trust a dive op or LDS to supply good air because of the logistical difficulties of performing my own personal air quality tests. On planning a dive profile, however, the logistics are a lot less complicated, making this an area where I'm not willing to do a trust me dive. As I recommended in my more harshly worded earlier post, the relatively inexpensive PADI wheel is a adequate, although awkward, planning tool for multilevel dives.

Regards,

Charlie Allen

 

[bperrybap]

Jarrett,

Ignoring all the pros/cons and what to do about lockouts, you'll
have to consider how you'll really have backup capability.
For example, how will you measure your tank pressure?
AND more importantly, how will you connect things up to
your first stage?

Currently you have the ATMOS AI which is your SPG as well as
your computer. If you add a SUUNTO setup, what will be
used for the SPG? Will you have air integration with the Suunto?
If so, you can go with the wireless tank pressure
computer from SUUNTO, but I think earlier you had said you wanted
to avoid the wireless sensors intially.
If you go with something like the Suunto Cobra, youll need another
hose from your first stage and it seems like an odd configuration
especially since you had originally leaned toward eliminating
a hose by using an AIR-2 or Atomic SS1.

If you opt for a non Air integrated Suunto,
you could use the ATMOS AI as your SPG but that seems pretty
expensive and if you are worried about your AI failing, it doesn't
offer any redundancy since if your AI dies, then you have no
depth gauge.
You could stick a mechanical SPG on your hose and remove the ATMOS AI, but I'm not sure you just can stick the ATMOS AI in your pocket since it has an
open hole for the air quick connect and water may not be good
for the SPG sensor in the AI.

I guess if it were me, I'd stick with the ATMOS AI.
(which happens to be what my wife and I currenly have)
We liked the AI because even though it is small,
the numbers on it are larger and
darker/thicker and easier to read than many of the other
computers, especially many of the wrist computers.
Plus it had the features that we wanted and we can always
dive more conservatively than what the computer indicates.


If you really are worried about the agressiveness of the AI,
trade/sell it and use the funds to switch to Suunto and forget
about all this redundancy and lockout stuff for a while and just
have fun diving for a while.


--- Bill

 

[serambin]

Charlie99,

That is my concern exactly. I don't have a computer, and recently went on a boat dive. I knew how long I could stay at 130' for the 1st dive, but my buddy and everyone on the boat had computers. We did multilevel for that one, and for the second and third dives that day, 100' max and 80' max, respectively. I didn't want to be an idiot and ask them what my pressure groups were, 'cause according to my chart, I was off the map, but 4 different brands of computers weren't whining, so I knew I was O.K. Crap, I don't even know if computers give you pressure groups.

I figured I would just calculate the approximate time at each level, and keep adding the RNT minutes to each new level for each dive, and that's all I could do. I have no clue how accurate that is compared to the wheel or to a computer, but until I decide on which one to get, that's all I could do.

You will be bent. By the way, who do you have insurance with? Just want to unload any shares I have.

 

[serambin]

At first reading this thread I wondered if the question deserved much thought. However, after 'thinking a little' I realized that I carry a computer for one reason and one reason only, it gives me more bottom time. It is like eating ice cream made with splenda, all the pleasure without the guilt.

Here's the problem, I don't get fewer calories with the computer. I get an increased risk of being bent, however small that risk is.

Someone said that computers can fail. My DI's TUSA failed a few weeks ago in Florida on a dive trip. Not a lock-out, but a sensor error. Should that cause him to miss dives?

Finally, If you use the more conservative computer as the primary, mixing the brands shouldn't be problem. I for one would hate to admit to myself I got bent because I didn't listen to the device I paid good money for.

Stan

 

[mason]

You will be bent. By the way, who do you have insurance with? Just want to unload any shares I have.

Well, I suppose it could have happened, but it didn't, and since none of the four computers were alarming, I'm guessing we were all within acceptable limits.

We weren't at any level for very long--just checking out the oil rigs and trying to do some fishing. The two divemasters were tournament spearfishermen and were showing us the ropes, and I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. This is just a WAG, but I'll bet if I had a computer, it would have been fine, too.

Don't get me wrong, I fully intend to get a computer, and if I wasn't so ANAL and analytical, I would have bought the first one I saw.

I appreciate the concern for my safety, regardless how it's presented, and I'm sure that had this been a dive charter, liability as well as safety issues would have mandated different actions.

 

[mason]

Jarrett,

Sorry for the hijack of your thread. It wasn't my intention.

 

[Jarrett]

No problem, it looks like it is winding down anyway. I changed my mind and decided to stick with an Aeris computer (Atmos 2) for a backup. For several reasons that are floating around in the thread. Thanks again for all the info and good conversation.

 

[Rick Inman]

Computers, comshmuters. I use one, and I like how it looks at night when it lights up.

But I think there is some backward thinking in diving the computer, then figuring out your plan, or figuring it out as you go.

My computer verifies my plan, I don't let it give me moment by moment instructions on what to do during my dive.

One computer, two computers, three computers, four.

If I don't know my plan it doesn't matter any more.

In Cozumel I had my computer inadvertently set to altitude. It put me into deco, which I knew was horse water. I just did the time (saw a shark and a turtle the others didn't) to keep my puter from keeping the DM awake during the SI. Came up with about 200psi.

I need some better system, 'cause I often forget to set my computer to 32%. So what. I know how to make the dive. Two computers won't change that.

When my wife cooks in the microwave, she pushed the button that beeps at her when it wants her to turn the food, beeps at her to let it stand, beeps at her to turn the plate, beeps at her to change to high.

I hate that. I prefer to figure out what it takes to cook the food and then tell the machine what to do, instead of it telling me.

 

[JimC]

Confessions of a bottom timer junky.

I can dive longer and any computer on the market "lets me".
I can dive shorter than any computer on the market "lets me".
I can dive more conservative or aggressive.
I am in control of my risk level and make those choices prior to getting into the water.

A computer doesn't give me anything that a bit of thinking and pre-dive planning doesn't. Its like eating my ice cream and having my cake at the same time.

P.S. I was forced to use a computer last night and I forgot to set the dumb *** thing to 32%, having not used a computer in 400 or so dives. Bent it like a pretizel, but atleast it didn't stop displaying information and lock me out.

P.P.S. If your looking for an excelent dive recorder, check out the sensus pro. Much cheaper than a computer + download kit and if your a computer nerd you can customize your own software.

 

[Christi]

here's my two (hundred) pesos...

First, I really want to commend you for being so conscientious about this as a new diver...and for ASKING questions that you don't know the answer to. I wish I saw more of this attitude in new divers and seasoned divers alike.

Second, I like what NetDoc and Rick had to say...along with several others...even though I can't remember exactly who

Some additional thoughts (I apologize if these are redundant...but isn't that what this is about

If your computer, primary or back-up go into deco mode..."do the time" as Rick said. Fulfill the deco obligation and do a proper ascent, and it will not lock you out.

I'll remind you of a couple of things that should have been thoroughly covered in your open water training, and which are stated right on the PADI RDP's. (I believe you did a PADI cert at Cozemeleño).

"Emergency decompression - If a no-decompression limit is exceeded by no more than 5 minutes, an 8 minute decompression stop at 15 feet is mandatory. Upon surfacing, the diver must remain out of the water for at least 6 hours prior to making another dive. If a no-decompression is exceeded by more than 5 minutes, a 15 ft decompression stop of no less than 15 minutes is urged (air supply permitting).Upon surfacing, the diver must remain out of the water for at least 24 hours prior to making another dive."

Special Rules for Multiple Dives - If you are planning threee or more dives in a day: Beginning with the first dive, if your ending pressure group after any dive is W or X, the minimum surface interval between subsequent dives is 1 hour. If your ending pressure group after any dive is Y or Z, the minimum surface interval between all subsequent dives is 3 hours."

In essence, your computer is telling you the same thing if you go into deco...the difference is that it is calculating your actual profiles rather than the "hypothetical" calculations of the RDP. Therefore, if you exceed those limitations imposed by your computer based on YOUR profiles, you need to fulfill the deco obligations it requires.

DO you need to sit out for three hours? That depends...what does your computer tell you? AS your brother may have indicated to you, we (BXTS) do an absolute minimum of 1 hour SI's ALWAYS...usually more like 90 to 120 minutes depending on what kind of profiles we have been doing in the preceeding day(s). Some people whine about this, but that's our policy and I enforce this as much (or more) for my divemasters as I do for our guest divers. This proves very helpful to those on Suunto computers and it gives us more options for our second dive. Obviously, it also allows us more offgassing time so that we have less residual nitrogen for our next dive(s).

To qualify this, we also require computers and we allow our divers to dive their computers and air to 1000 psi or 700psi (depending on the profile)...whichever comes first. If this means a 30 minute dive or if it means a 60 or 70 minute dive, so be it...but each diver is responsible for monitoring their computers and communicating with the DM/ascending to a shallower depth/making a proper ascent/fulfilling a deco obligation, etc. We give divers as much autonomy as possible unless they demonstrate that they need more supervision and more "monitoring" so to speak. If someone cannot follow the dive plan (exceed the max. depth given in the briefing), or if they allow themselves to go into deco and do not fulfill their deco obligation...then we address the situation accordingly. The DM is a guide and will give a dive plan for the group as a whole, but if your computer doesn't "like" this plan, it's your responsibility as a certified diver to adjust your plan accordingly and to communicate this to the DM if applicable.

SO...back to the original question. Is there a lock-out rule enforced by dive operators? Yes, but that IS within your control.

Monitor your computer, communicate with the DM, ascend to a shallower depth if necessary, abort the dive if necessary, and always make sure you allow yourself enough air to fulfill your deco obligation if you get into that position...make your computer happy before you surface. If you do these things, I highly doubt you'll be forced to sit out a dive.

Make sense?

One more note: I dive with two completely different computers. I am sure this will invoke many differing opinions, but this is MY purpose for the two computers.

I dive a UWATEC Smartpro and an Oceanic VersaPro...almost one extreme to the other. The Uwatec has always been my primary. When purchasing my second computer I went with the Oceanic for price (couldn't afford another UWATEC) and because the user can change the batteries...which is very important to me...when my Uwatec batteries go, I have to send it in to Scubapro and am without it for two to three weeks...

I always dive nitrox (unless a dive is planned beyond EAN limits). I dive nitrox based on AIR calculations, but I still want to track my O2 exposure. I set my Uwatec to the actual blend, and I dive the Oceanic on air...staying WITHIN the limits...meaning I don't even allow myself to get into the yellow graph area. This way, I am tracking both O2 exposure AND nitrogen exposre on a very conservative level. On several occasions, even with the UWATEC set to nitrox (or when I have forgotten to reset it = user error), it has still put me into a deco obligation while the Oceanic still says I'm "ok." In this event, I satisfy the deco obligation of the obviously more conservative computer, even if I know it was simply a setting error. People who have dove with me personally know that i Typically do very long "safety" stops and that my UWATEC is REALLY conservative...but I still use it and I still keep it happy even if it is irritating at times

I hope I didn't overwhelm you and I hope this has been helpful!