Bad memory? O2 Clean required for less than 40% nitrox

[Divin'Papaw]

Something folks forget ... dive shops carry liability insurance. Insurance underwriters make rules which includes following industry standards. While rare, if there is an issue, and if the shop is found not to be following the industry standards then the insurance company is not going to payout. So next time your are in a shop that is following the CGA rules maybe it is because they are concerned about the potential liability. So give them a break.

The other to consider, the conversation of 40% has been going on for at least two decades. As such, one has to seriously wonder why the cylinder manufactures and the scuba industry have not worked with the CGA to create a 40% standard??? It would be in everyone's best interest to have consistent standards. But perhaps there are issues they most do not know about or understand.

If insurance were the cause you would see far more shops sticking to the 23.5% rule.

 

[Scared Silly]

If insurance were the cause you would see far more shops sticking to the 23.5% rule.

I bet if you were to point blank ask the owner "Would your insurance cover you if there was a fill incidence where NITROX was put into a cylinder that did not follow CGA standards" you would get a lot of deer into the headlights look in return. That is most have probably thought about it let alone discussed it with their insurance company.

 

[iyakonboats]

The shop near my office (where I’ve been working since March) requires the big yellow and green label. Refuses to fill without it. I questioned the shop owner further and it had nothing to do with my tanks coming from DGX with their sticker. If I had brought in tanks VIP’d at another shop with the usual smaller VIP sticker, no good. Guy actually showed me the PADI nitrox book and pointed to a picture of tanks with the big yellow and green sticker. Guy wasn’t happy when I told him not everything PADI says is true, but I caved for convenience sake. 10 minutes vs 60 minutes for fills?

Just a picture? No actual literature that stated "must have the green and yellow Nitrox only sticker"? I mean, so what if it has it or not? Does that shop have "oxygen grade air"? Even if they do, it doesn't mean you haven't had the tank filled where the air wasn't "oxygen grade". I'm no cert agency basher, they're all the same in my opinion, some more commercial than others, but if he only refers to a picture in a book with no actual statement stating it is mandatory, perhaps just get fills with him and provide him no other business.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I bet if you were to point blank ask the owner "Would your insurance cover you if there was a fill incidence where NITROX was put into a cylinder that did not follow CGA standards" you would get a lot of deer into the headlights look in return. That is most have probably thought about it let alone discussed it with their insurance company.

Good thing filling tanks with banked nitrox up to 40% doesn't cause fill issues. Period. There has never been one. Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt you will find a single fill incident that was clearly attributed to filling a non-O2 clean tank with 40% or less. I certainly have never come across one in the 15 years or so that I've been diving. And this is with literally millions of fills with banked nitrox over the years. I'm guessing of course on the number but over the years there has been A LOT of fills of non-O2 clean tanks with banked nitrox up to 40%, most being 32% or 36%.

 

[Marie13]

Just a picture? No actual literature that stated "must have the green and yellow Nitrox only sticker"? I mean, so what if it has it or not? Does that shop have "oxygen grade air"? Even if they do, it doesn't mean you haven't had the tank filled where the air wasn't "oxygen grade". I'm no cert agency basher, they're all the same in my opinion, some more commercial than others, but if he only refers to a picture in a book with no actual statement stating it is mandatory, perhaps just get fills with him and provide him no other business.

Guy is quite the stickler. I only go there for fills as it’s so close to the office. Quick turn around on service for my Apeks regs. It’s a recreational shop with pretty much nothing I would buy. They have the occasional SM class or PADI “tec” but that’s it, other than the usual PADI stuff. Their price for bolt snaps is stupid. Like $20 for a big one. DGX gets most of my business these day.

 

[iyakonboats]

Guy is quite the stickler. I only go there for fills as it’s so close to the office. Quick turn around on service for my Apeks regs. It’s a recreational shop with pretty much nothing I would buy. They have the occasional SM class or PADI “tec” but that’s it, other than the usual PADI stuff. Their price for bolt snaps is stupid. Like $20 for a big one. DGX gets most of my business these day.

I bet its $20 for one of the crappy ones with the sharp edges that mauls your thumbs too. I have to say, DGX is doing rather well, I've bought from them recently, but I've also bought a lot from Divers-Supply too

 

[Scared Silly]

Good thing filling tanks with banked nitrox up to 40% doesn't cause fill issues. Period. There has never been one. Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt you will find a single fill incident that was clearly attributed to filling a non-O2 clean tank with 40% or less. I certainly have never come across one in the 15 years or so that I've been diving. And this is with literally millions of fills with banked nitrox over the years. I'm guessing of course on the number but over the years there has been A LOT of fills of non-O2 clean tanks with banked nitrox up to 40%, most being 32% or 36%.

I will correct you, there have been some incidents one of which I was told was at NASA. But what you and others keep saying which is all anecdotal but yet the CGA standards have not change. So there is more to it than you think.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I will correct you, there have been some incidents one of which I was told was at NASA. But what you and others keep saying which is all anecdotal but yet the CGA standards have not change. So there is more to it than you think.

I’d want to see the data. At this point what you’re arguing (that there have been incidents) is also anecdotal.

Changing standards can often times take an act of God. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t data supporting the change. The issues with making the changes to standards are often due to bureaucracy, politics or funding and not a true lack of justification or data supporting the change.

 

[iyakonboats]

I will correct you, there have been some incidents one of which I was told was at NASA. But what you and others keep saying which is all anecdotal but yet the CGA standards have not change. So there is more to it than you think.

I don't have a dog in your fight here, but your own reference is also...anecdotal. Do you have a reference to the incidents involving banked 40% EAN, which have concluded beyond a reasonable doubt, based solely on the evidence provided to them, that the cause was the enriched air beyond beyond 23.5% and at or below 40%, premixed?

You keep referencing CGA and how their standards haven't changed, and while it is a valid point, most standards don't change if a tiny subset of users request/demand it, or the same subset of users want to have a discussion about changing the standard. Much like in my own field where I help develop standards, the tiny subset of users won't influence it; however, it doesn't mean there won't be other vendors who create proprietary solutions based on the standard to serve that niche.

The US Navy, the USCG, and I believe even OSHA say 40% is the limit (I believe NASA does too, but I am just not willing to search for their documentation). I've heard, or maybe read, Luxfer requires(ed) cleaning beyond 23.5%, I dive Faber tanks and all operations I've ever used also have Faber HP steel tanks. In fact, remembering NOAA also has skin in this game, I found their guide too: http://www.omao.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/NDSSM Final_041217.pdf

It seems only ANDI (which uses their trade marked term 'safe air') and CGA (who, once again, likely sees SCUBA as a niche market to the overall demands of the compressed air gas market) adhere to this 23.5% 'standard'. From my own experience, niche end users/use cases don't have enough clout or political power to change or turn standards, even within bodies that serve to set the standards, politics still rule.

 

[Scared Silly]

I’d want to see the data.

Do you have a reference to the incidents involving banked 40% EAN, which have concluded beyond a reasonable doubt, based solely on the evidence provided to them, that the cause was the enriched air beyond beyond 23.5% and at or below 40%, premixed?

NASA Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)