Bad Dive Master

[cartecs]

I was on a boat and a couple was going to do their open water and advanced water together!!! Slam bam thank you maam.

However in their defense, dive shops push this. I got my advanced in Thailand when I had my OW cert dives and 4 dives in Korea and then a few dives on the boat while doing the advanced course work. There are some who believe you should do the Advanced sooner than later. I am glad I did it because I think my bouyancy is much better, but I just need more dives!

A bit of a rant. sorry

That's how my OW/AOW/Nitrox was.. and we didn't even go over buoyancy control or anything remotely "complicated". Also I didn't even really have any instruction from an instructor for Nitrox just read a book and took a test.. how dandy. Then on my Nitrox checkout dive (that was supposed to be on the Spiegel Grove) the DM went down the wrong anchor line and took me and like 5 others to the sand instead. I was newbie enough to think to myself "I thought the boat captain said to go LEFT! Well he's the DM..." (this was about 2 years ago, suffice to say I have learned when I should listen to DMs and when I should not).

Luckily I have a brother and cousin (not instructors, but have had up to rescue and 200ish dives between them)that went over all the stuff I missed from my great instructors.. and even covered some other things in better detail. Though it should be said I was taking my courses through my University.. so I guess you can't really expect much more than a cattle chute-esque approach to teaching. One of the reasons I have not gotten around to taking Rescue is I'm afraid of getting some horrible instructor that doesn't know what they're doing like I had in OW/AOW.

Just like to add that I see a pretty similar trend working in IT. People will just cram session up with loads of certifications and have 1/10th the experience they should really have but clueless employers think "well they have a degree and all these certifications great!" It seems to me that anytime there is an established chain of classes/certs human beings will always try and get through them and get to the top as quickly as possible.. just so long as they meet the min requirements to get them. Talk about a money train.

 

[RonFrank]

In answer to your excellent questions - NO, I'm not sure I can do those things as well as they are needed to be done. Multi tasking adds a whole other thing to diving. I"ve even had trouble in blue water holding my safety stop within 4 ft range without looking at my puter.

I don't profess to know everything, or even a lot of things. I have enough dives to realize how much I DON'T KNOW. As the lovely and bright Catherine has said, PF is a work in progress, as all of us are. I am getting better though.

PF,

For someone who does not profess to know everything, you sure seem to have a lot of opinions about diviing instruction, DM's, and how people learn.
o
I question why you have not done a rescue class? Seriously dude, everyone is a work in progress, so what kind of work are you?

I'd suggest you take at LEAST rescue. I was not aware of how fundemental of a class this is until I did it. IMO if you have not taken Rescue with 100 dives under your belt, than that is irresponsible. Unfortunately I'm not sure based on posts, that you are as good of a buddy as you may think you are.

You preach against training, and maybe that is why IMO you are lacking training. Rather than preach experience, you may want to consider taking more training, and then preaching that. It amazes me that so many divers act like training is a waste of time. Sure education is as good as the educators to some degree, but can ANYONE argue that training and education is a waste of time? IMO, no, so stop doing so...

IMO if the training sucks, find better teachers. Certainly there are GREAT teachers to be had, just lood at some of the people responding to this thread. Don't bash training in the name of PADI, that is soooo lame. Find good instructors, and you will become a better and more prepared diver.

There is also a level of self practice. On many dives I try and practice at least one newish skill, and a couple basices. I do stuff like launching a sausage from the safety stop. Or we do fin techniques, or we do air drills. IMO these are things that make you a better diver. MOST of the skills you need as a rec diver are taught in OW. So the question becomes not how many dives do you have, but how many dives do you have where you have actually PRACTICED basic skills?

 

[Christi]

... Though it should be said I was taking my courses through my University.. so I guess you can't really expect much more than a cattle chute-esque approach to teaching.

Hmm, I would think taking a full semester course in college would actually provide you with more detail and more thorough classroom sessions.

I agree 110% with Fishboy...including the "Master" Diver Rating...what a joke that is...and it gives alot of divers that hold that rating a false sense of security or confidence.

As far as the AOW/Rescue progression... the earlier the better, I just think the names for the course's are deceiving. Look at what you actually do in AOW; a navigation, night, "deep" and a couple of optional dives. Nothing really "advanced", just more experience diving with an instructor. As a former instructor/potential buddy, I would much rather dive with someone on their 10th dive who is an AOW than someone who was just diving after OW. As far as Rescue goes, if I remember correctly, (haven't taught the class in a while), most of the skills are on the surface. Again, the more experience with a dive professional, the better. These skills shouldn't be in the hands of only a few "elite" divers.

Now if you really want to get me going, tell me that I should be respecting a PADI Master Diver. While their skills should be a little higher than most, really all a PADI Master Diver is, is a person who spent a bunch of money on over priced specialties (What the heck is a Night Diver Specialty?)

Here's what I wrote before I read the above...can you all tell I'm just catching up on this thread? haha...

People, the PADI AOW is not MEANT to make you an "advanced" diver. It is designed to give you more training/foundation with an instructor before setting you lose...that's why many shops offer the courses back to back. This is the way the course is intended and the way it is designed...and why it's not a very challenging course. You expand and practice on skills learned in basic open water. Someone that has 100 or 200 dives under their belt will not get as much from this course as a new diver will.

Rescue is another that can be aken pretty quickly to teach you how to handle basic emergency situations for yourself and your buddy. Again, being a "rescue" diver doesn't make you an "advanced" diver. PADI designed it to be taken as part of the diving foundation.

After going through the rescue course, divers should really concentrate on getting more bottom time under their belt and improving and refining their diving. Find an area that interess you and take specialty courses. I personally think that divers shouldn't be eligible to START DM training with less than 100 dives...but that's just my opinion!

 

[pilot fish]

I personally think that divers shouldn't be eligible to START DM training with less than 100 dives...but that's just my opinion!]]]christi


Sounds reasonable to me

 

[Cacia]

The other option, which does not get mentioned too often, is you can teach yourself many things without ever paying money to PADI. The information is out there and so are mentors in the dive community.

The notion that you have to pay money for "proper training" is not always true.
I have learned more seeking certain divers out than my masterdiver or divemaster classes which were fairly rudimentary in contrast.

It is more convenient for people to find fault in DM's but much more effective just to learn what you need for yourself and then it won't matter so much...

 

[cartecs]

Hmm, I would think taking a full semester course in college would actually provide you with more detail and more thorough classroom sessions.

One would think so but they only had us come into the classroom one day a week which gave us about 9ish sessions counting the two that were "cancelled" (we didn't have to go for the entire semester) but probably 4 of them were actual teaching.

 

[RonFrank]

The other option, which does not get mentioned too often, is you can teach yourself many things without ever paying money to PADI. The information is out there and so are mentors in the dive community.

The notion that you have to pay money for "proper training" is not always true.
I have learned more seeking certain divers out than my masterdiver or divemaster classes which were fairly rudimentary in contrast.

It is more convenient for people to find fault in DM's but much more effective just to learn what you need for yourself and then it won't matter so much...

Certainly training outside of an organized class is great! I try and self train on every dive. I do however think that an organized class is of benifit. This does not have to include C-Cards, or PADI, just make sure that whomever is conducting the training is aware of the goals of the students!

I have done a lot of top-side photo seminars that are not accredited by anyone. However I had an agenda, and goals for the students which is somewhat key.

 

[Carolina Diver]

I haven't read all of the posts, but several. It is interesting that all of the focus (I have read) has been on the training. IMO the dive operator/employer is responsible for their hiring practices just like anyone else. I would think a responsible employer would have standards for hiring such as: minimum ___ dives with ____ as a divemaster, personal checkouts, references, and maybe a probationary period.

I don't hire a new employee just because they graduated college. That just means they have a good start....

 

[fishb0y]

Sorry I haven't been able to keep with the conversation, but PF, at what point do you think a diver is capable of taking care of themselves? Stop relying on the DM so much to make basic decisions.

It seems like you are making the DM the ultimate form of protection in the Ocean, when it should be the individuals own responsibility. A DM is merely a jack of all trades, and the initial step for a professional diver.

I keep looking back to one of your earlier threads in which you blame the DM for putting you at risk, when at any time you could have called the dive. Stop worrying how many dives the DM has, worry about your abilities as a diver to get yourself out of situations, or better yet, keep out of them

 

[Freds@Aquanauts]

I have just completed my DM course, I did it as a three and half month internship program, and I think that you can learn just as much from a "bad" DM as you can a good one. Whilst you undoubtedly aspire to the qualities of a good DM in the water, whether you're impressed by a particular skill or attribute of their dive style, you can also aspire to do the opposite of what a DM does badly. Its that old PADI adage..."I really liked the way you did this...However I did notice a couple of problems..." As a diver your education is always growing regardless of whether you have done 15 dives or 1500, and a responsible diver you are always evaluating the skills of those guys and gals that you hit the bottom with!So if you happen to have a bad dive, for whatever reason, evaluate what happened and what you can do in a preventative sense next time.

Freds