Bad Dive Master

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not even that. Doing the same thing wrong time after time doesn't make it any better or safer. If the skill was never learnt to start with (or learnt incorrectly), it's not like it magically appears because you dive more! The number of dives as a judgement of anyones skill level is more or less useless IMO.

You got that right ... I know an instructor who claims to have certified thousands of divers ... yet he leaves a trench behind him every time he dives. In all those years it has never occurred to him that he should get his fins off the bottom ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pilot fish]

Very much so ... and mastering a skill means different things to different people. There is a lot of subjectivity in dive instruction ... which is why this discussion occurs so often. The trick is knowing where to place the bar in order to decide that the student has met the objectives of the class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It should not mean something different to me than you. You can either do the skill, or not do the skill. Where to place the bar is the same -can you peform the skill to save yourself or another diver? It should not be so subjective, as you put it. There is a minimum standard that must be met and if you cannot meet that, then you can't do it.

 

[TCDiver1]

I've been diving in a lot of "foreign places" over the years. I could go back through my logbook and add em up for you PF but it probably adds up to dozens of trips to a dozen or so locales.

I gotta say that the majority of the DM's involved in these trips were very good at their jobs, had excellent skills and worked hard to insure all their charges had a good, safe experience. Many were instructors.

FME, in places like Coz they tend to be DM's only and places like the Caymans or Hawaii they tend to be both. It makes sense for them to be both in resort settings so they can teach classes and lead dives.

Maybe you just have bad luck but i just haven't seen a prevalence of "bad DM's" out there. Bad experiences will happen but they are the exception to the rule of all the good experiences i've had.

 

[pilot fish]

I've been diving in a lot of "foreign places" over the years. I could go back through my logbook and add em up for you PF but it probably adds up to dozens of trips to a dozen or so locales.

I gotta say that the majority of the DM's involved in these trips were very good at their jobs, had excellent skills and worked hard to insure all their charges had a good safe experience. Many were instructors.

FME, in places like Coz they tend to be DM's only and places like the Caymans or Hawaii they tend to be both. It makes sense for them to be both in resort settings so they can teach classes and lead dives.

Maybe you just have bad luck but i just haven't seen a prevalence of "bad DM's" out there. Bad experiences will happen but they are the exception to the rule of all the good experiences i've had.

I agree with you. My experiences with DM in the foreign countries I've dove in are positive, with a few exceptions. I would say my DM experience has been 95% good. There will always be one or two that don't know thier butts from their snorkels.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It should not mean something different to me than you. You can either do the skill, or not do the skill. Where to place the bar is the same -can you peform the skill to save yourself or another diver? It should not be so subjective, as you put it. There is a minimum standard that must be met and if you cannot meet that, then you can't do it.

I'm not talking about minimum standards ... I'm talking about skills.

Do you think you have buoyancy control mastered? Can you hold your position in the water anytime you want to? Good ...

Now try it again, while deploying a surface marker and ascending as you spool up the line.

And again, donating a reg to a dive buddy and doing a controlled ascent while sharing air. Don't forget the safety stop.

Now do it again ... this time, flood your mask (as though your buddy accidentally knocked it partly off your face during the exchange) ... can you still control your ascent rate? Can you still hold your stop? Can you hold it while clearing your mask?

Buoyancy control means different things to different people ... I still haven't "mastered" the skill ... because every time I take a new class or workshop the instructor finds a way to show me that I still need to work on some nuance that will lead me to a higher level of mastery ... and that's with nearly 1,500 dives under my weightbelt.

Don't ever think you know everything there is to know about any diving skill ... you only know what you've been exposed to, and what you've taught your body to respond to. As you say, the rest takes practice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Web Monkey]

FME, in places like Coz they tend to be DM's only and places like the Caymans or Hawaii they tend to be both. It makes sense for them to be both in resort settings so they can teach classes and lead dives.

Maybe you just have bad luck but i just haven't seen a prevalence of "bad DM's" out there. Bad experiences will happen but they are the exception to the rule of all the good experiences i've had.

I've only seen one bad DM, ever. The rest have worked their butts off and typically done an excellent job.

Terry

 

[pilot fish]

In answer to your excellent questions - NO, I'm not sure I can do those things as well as they are needed to be done. Multi tasking adds a whole other thing to diving. I"ve even had trouble in blue water holding my safety stop within 4 ft range without looking at my puter.

No, I don't profess to know everything, or even a lot of things. I have enough dives to realize how much I DON'T KNOW. As the lovely and bright Catherine has said, PF is a work in progress, as all of us are. I am getting better though.

I'm not talking about minimum standards ... I'm talking about skills.

Do you think you have buoyancy control mastered? Can you hold your position in the water anytime you want to? Good ...

Now try it again, while deploying a surface marker and ascending as you spool up the line.

And again, donating a reg to a dive buddy and doing a controlled ascent while sharing air. Don't forget the safety stop.

Now do it again ... this time, flood your mask (as though your buddy accidentally knocked it partly off your face during the exchange) ... can you still control your ascent rate? Can you still hold your stop? Can you hold it while clearing your mask?

Buoyancy control means different things to different people ... I still haven't "mastered" the skill ... because every time I take a new class or workshop the instructor finds a way to show me that I still need to work on some nuance that will lead me to a higher level of mastery ... and that's with nearly 1,500 dives under my weightbelt.

Don't ever think you know everything there is to know about any diving skill ... you only know what you've been exposed to, and what you've taught your body to respond to. As you say, the rest takes practice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[c555]

That's the million dollar question ... ain't it.

Unfortunately, all we have to go on is a somewhat unspecific account by one diver ... who seems to have dropped out of the conversation, by the way.

Having read his account, I asked some pointed questions that might help shed light on the topic ... unfortunately, they remain unanswered.

Without knowing more about the circumstances, it's impossible to know whether the DM was good or bad ... or whether the person in question was actually a DM at all ... we've only heard one side of the story. And since DM's don't typically work on charter boats around here, there's some question in my mind that the story is what it appears to be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry that I have been unable to attend the discusion. I have school and I can't really be part of this there. To start with, this was not a shop dive. It was just a charter put on by tealwater.I don't know why the dive masters dove, but they did. I don't believe that the DM that was with us was trained, she was just a diver who thought she could guide us. You seemed confused about what went on that day, so Ill retell you. When we got to the dive site, wich was fox island with a planned max deapth of 60 ft, the captian said he had placed a bouy there to mark it, but it was gone. He went to the place where he thought it would be and cut the engines to allow us the jump in. The groups were me and my cousin with 1 divemaster, my dad and brother with another DM, and my Aunt and uncle with the final DM. My group descended first to 60 ft and began following the DM. She took her compass bearing and began swimming very fast and kicking up a lot of silt. We followed her for about 10 minutes without finding the dive site. During this time, she had turned on her light but then just dropped it to hang on the lanyard for the rest of the dive. This is how it drug through everything. So after 10 min, she stopped to ask us if we were OK, we said yes so she took a new compass bearing and began swimming again. Her light was still dragging. 10 minutes after that, at about 20 minutes total bottom time, she stopped again asking if we were OK. We replied yes
but I also tried to tell her that the light was hanging down. She clipped it back on and then switched to her backup, not realizing the problem. We followed her for 10 more minutes until she gave us the up sign, even though we still had 1/2 a tank left. We started to ascend but she just bolted straight up. When we got to the safety stop, she wasn't there but we leveled off anyway. Then the DM just landed on top of me. She pulled me down some, but we got back to 15 ft. Then we just descided to go up because we hadn't been down very long, and again she swam up very fast. This time her light got caught on my primary regulators hose and began dragging me up. At about 7 ft, she ripped my regulator out, so I reached for my octo but I realized we were only a few feet down so I just swam the rest of the way up. Our group of 3 reached the surface safely and we signaled the dive boat to come over. As it got closer, I saw one person sitting on the side breathing oxygen and everyone else was on board, even though it had only been a 1/2 hour. When we were on board and out of our gear, I learned what happened. The group with my aunt and uncle had started their descent, but my aunt didn't control it. She began sinking extremely fast and finally hit the bottom at over 100 ft. Her buddy and the Dm reached her and were able to safely bring her to the surface. They were brought on and my uncle popped a blood vessel in his left eye so that his eye was not just pink and bloodshot but pure blood red. The other group of divers, my dad and brother w/ their Dm had a similar problem. My brother is new and he also had an uncontrolled descent. They hit the bottom at 90 ft and then immediatly ascended to the surface. On this dive, no-one was injured. The way the captian could have prevended this was drop us in the correct spot. When he cut the engines we were in about 30 ft of water but between then and the time we entered the water we drifted deeper. The captian could have dropped us in 30 ft not 100+ ft to stop the uncontrolled descents. On the second dive at z's reef, my dad and I were the only people who did the second dive and I was with a different dive master and had a very good time.

 

[pilot fish]

Sorry that I have been unable to attend the discusion. I have school and I can't really be part of this there. To start with, this was not a shop dive. It was just a charter put on by tealwater.I don't know why the dive masters dove, but they did. I don't believe that the DM that was with us was trained, she was just a diver who thought she could guide us. You seemed confused about what went on that day, so Ill retell you. When we got to the dive site, wich was fox island with a planned max deapth of 60 ft, the captian said he had placed a bouy there to mark it, but it was gone. He went to the place where he thought it would be and cut the engines to allow us the jump in. The groups were me and my cousin with 1 divemaster, my dad and brother with another DM, and my Aunt and uncle with the final DM. My group descended first to 60 ft and began following the DM. She took her compass bearing and began swimming very fast and kicking up a lot of silt. We followed her for about 10 minutes without finding the dive site. During this time, she had turned on her light but then just dropped it to hang on the lanyard for the rest of the dive. This is how it drug through everything. So after 10 min, she stopped to ask us if we were OK, we said yes so she took a new compass bearing and began swimming again. Her light was still dragging. 10 minutes after that, at about 20 minutes total bottom time, she stopped again asking if we were OK. We replied yes
but I also tried to tell her that the light was hanging down. She clipped it back on and then switched to her backup, not realizing the problem. We followed her for 10 more minutes until she gave us the up sign, even though we still had 1/2 a tank left. We started to ascend but she just bolted straight up. When we got to the safety stop, she wasn't there but we leveled off anyway. Then the DM just landed on top of me. She pulled me down some, but we got back to 15 ft. Then we just descided to go up because we hadn't been down very long, and again she swam up very fast. This time her light got caught on my primary regulators hose and began dragging me up. At about 7 ft, she ripped my regulator out, so I reached for my octo but I realized we were only a few feet down so I just swam the rest of the way up. Our group of 3 reached the surface safely and we signaled the dive boat to come over. As it got closer, I saw one person sitting on the side breathing oxygen and everyone else was on board, even though it had only been a 1/2 hour. When we were on board and out of our gear, I learned what happened. The group with my aunt and uncle had started their descent, but my aunt didn't control it. She began sinking extremely fast and finally hit the bottom at over 100 ft. Her buddy and the Dm reached her and were able to safely bring her to the surface. They were brought on and my uncle popped a blood vessel in his left eye so that his eye was not just pink and bloodshot but pure blood red. The other group of divers, my dad and brother w/ their Dm had a similar problem. My brother is new and he also had an uncontrolled descent. They hit the bottom at 90 ft and then immediatly ascended to the surface. On this dive, no-one was injured. The way the captian could have prevended this was drop us in the correct spot. When he cut the engines we were in about 30 ft of water but between then and the time we entered the water we drifted deeper. The captian could have dropped us in 30 ft not 100+ ft to stop the uncontrolled descents. On the second dive at z's reef, my dad and I were the only people who did the second dive and I was with a different dive master and had a very good time.

From your description of that dive it sounds like most people did not know what they were doing. I don't know who Tealwater is but I would speak to someone about that "DM" that dove with you, or have your parents do that, to prevent her from taking charge of any other divers till she gets some additional training. For this to happen to new, adult divers is bad enough but for it to happen to young, junior divers is extremely bad and should be addressed. Thank God you had the composure not to panic when your reg was ripped out of your mouth.

I'm curious, did anyone hold a discussion of this dive afterwards, or at least show that they were aware of how poorly planned and executed it was?

 

[victor]

Thank god the hard bottom was at 100ft.
What would we be reading today if it was 200ft+. Imagine the headlines.

1 dead, multiple injured in diving incident, family in mourning

For there own safety I think some remedial classes are necessary before most of this group are allowed into the water again.