Are rebreathers getting safer over time?

[danvolker]

Definitely yes, rebreather are getting safer. As a Poseidon Trainer and enthusiast of new technologies rebreather are the future of Tec diving, as well will be part of recreational diving market.
But we have to consider some points.
Equipment - units like Poseidon MK VI and Se7en have uniques features like automatic pre dive test that ensure the unit is able to dive and fully operational, at the same time you have a gain of time to perform this test. In the other side, even an automatic test requires total attention for the diver during the procedure. Software and firmware development are crucial too, to ensure the safety of diving and new capacities. Constant investments are required to ensure the latest updates to maintain the safety record.
Recognitions like CE requirements should be considered.
Training – new technologies requires new approaches to train the divers. Divers are trained to dive the unit , but points like software updates, dive planning , equipment maintenance and the constant train to use the unit are more important , even for experienced divers. Poseidon units are approved for Rec and Tec courses , basically using the same rig (battery and counterlungs are different for each level) but the training differs.
Procedure – most of the problems with rebreathers happen for diver actions: ignore alarms, inappropriate scrubber use, exceed limits or lack of training. An interesting point about the Poseidon unit is the data record unit (red box) that allows have access about unit function and alarms after the diving, With this type of information, in case of accident we can know if the diver received/ignore an alert/alarm during the dive , as well the entire dive profile including depth, time, tank pressures. This feature can be use for safety record and accident report and analyses.
Diving with rebreathers means use the latest technology, diving Tec with rebreathers including Helium dives it’s the edge. You can avoid all risks , but if you use an equipment that reduces overload tasking with automatic procedures and alarms will make your life easier underwater!
Dive Safe, No bubbles!

If I was a shop owner, and decided that my clientele or market area was screaming out for me to carry the Poseidon Rebreather ....there would be a few troubling issues for me to deal with.

1. As we know well from OC recreational and tech diving....100% of divers will not be cut out for tech diving...and not all are even cut out for recreational...there are "never-evers" for OC recreational. In a given population of recreational divers with advanced certs, assuming a large group within this wanted to go to this rebreather, how do you weed out the divers that do not have the detail mentality or the multi-tasking potentials a rebreather diver should have? Would this not require something along the lines of a GUE Fundies approach, that actually FAILS divers on a regular basis, and removed the divers from the Poseidon gene pool that would be unlikely to become competent and safe with it...And if this is so....if the customer has to Purchase the Rebreather prior to knowing if they have what it takes....the concept of a FAIL would become very expensive!!! What is your solution to the never-evers or poor candidates?
2. If you were going to put 100 good friends of yours into the water....wouldn't you want them to be in the safest gear that would handle their diving interests? Considering that for the recreational aspect of rebreather diving, OC can do all of it, with a much simpler and safer risk structure, I would have to question how many friends you could really drop into this....for the ones with serious "mission specific" goals, maybe...for many others, not so much....Thoughts?
3. If all the diver needs is silent, no bubble noise operation, a much safer option is using a reg like a Kraken with the exhaust behind the diver's head, and to add a fine sponge like filter to have the bubbles leaving as "Fiz" whenever the diver wants to be in Stealth mode...This would be far safer than the rebreather, and much better for most recreational divers....but of course, the shop would make a fraction of the income from this "safer" alternative....Thoughts?

 

[Doppler]

Definitely yes, rebreather are getting safer. As a Poseidon Trainer and enthusiast of new technologies rebreather are the future of Tec diving, as well will be part of recreational diving market.

...STUFF SNIPPED...

Dive Safe, No bubbles!

An interesting point of view... One I would counter as an experienced technical diver, rebreather instructor, and strong advocate for the use of CCR technology in certain applications; but also from the perspective of a dive-industry consultant with a particular interest in risk management.

My reasons for this position are simple. While there have been massive improvements to basic function, quality of build, and testing criterion, there has been only questionable improvements in overall diver training when one factors into the assessment, so-called recreational programs, and "idiot-proof" features.

Since the diver is a required component in making a rebreather work, I would have to say that my answer would have to be more guarded; and I would at very least like to see a more complete question being asked... for example: safer than what?

 

[PCoetzee]

Definitely yes, rebreather are getting safer. As a Poseidon Trainer and enthusiast of new technologies rebreather are the future of Tec diving, as well will be part of recreational diving market.
But we have to consider some points.
Equipment - units like Poseidon MK VI and Se7en have uniques features like automatic pre dive test that ensure the unit is able to dive and fully operational, at the same time you have a gain of time to perform this test. In the other side, even an automatic test requires total attention for the diver during the procedure. Software and firmware development are crucial too, to ensure the safety of diving and new capacities. Constant investments are required to ensure the latest updates to maintain the safety record!

blah blah blah...

And yet people die... The Poseidon safety record has a few stains already.

IMHO: Rebreathers should not be marketed to ignorant inexperienced people by greedy shop owners and instructors.

---------- Post added June 26th, 2015 at 01:13 PM ----------

We should start another Solo-Diving thread. That is even more fun than ccr getting safer or not...

---------- Post added June 26th, 2015 at 02:32 PM ----------

A must read for all on this thread: http://dhmjournal.com/files/Fock-Rebreather_deaths.pdf (Slightly outdated but still relevant.)
Andrew Fock states that is isn't really possible to establish if there is a rise or decline in rebreather fatalities as nobody has a clear number of how many machines are sold and how many of them are still in active service. It is obvious that you have to divide the number of fatalities by the population in order to derive any real indicative numbers.

I guess that we will be able to debate this topic into infinity with no real factual statistical answer to the original question.

Fock claims that between 1998 and 2010 approximately 5.33 people died using rebreathers for every 100 000 dives. (10 times more than OC Scuba and not quite as dangerous as Base Jumping.)

There is no clear method to establish if the safety record is improving or not...

I cant help thinking that with the accessibility of Type-R CCR machines like the Mk 6 and 7 in conjunction with extremely low certification requirements for recreational CCR instructors that the safety record will be dwindling in the future. Rebreathers are probably getting safer from an engineering point of view. People however does not seem to get smarter.

 

[rjack321]

I guess that we will be able to debate this topic into infinity with no real factual statistical answer to the original question.

Welcome to scubaboard, opinions are free and readily available for eternity.

 

[kr2y5]

I guess that we will be able to debate this topic into infinity with no real factual statistical answer to the original question. (...) There is no clear method to establish if the safety record is improving or not...

The glass is half full... after all, you just cited an article with at least some estimates (thanks!), that seems like a major step forward.

 

[hroark2112]

blah blah blah...


We should start another Solo-Diving thread. That is even more fun than ccr getting safer or not....

Start a Solo Rebreather Diving thread. See the world explode!!

 

[reefrat]

Start a Solo Rebreather Diving thread. See the world explode!!

Or:
Solo alpinist recreational cave diving using a home build re-breather.