Are BOW and AOW classes really changing that much

[gcarter]

Not sure if it is an agency thing or just a way to restructure the classes to hold additional classes to make more money. I began diving in 2011 with NAUI taking BOW, AOW/Nitrox and have recently started working towards my DM as I would like to help instruct. A buddy of mine finally took the plunge and signed up for is BOW, not many shops near us offer NAUI anymore so he opted to enroll with PADI. Now let me say I think PADI is a great organization and I like some of their course offerings, though in my experience their itinerary has always been a little lax. I spent some time talking with him last night and asked him how the class was going, what he was learning, etc as I want to plan a day of diving to celebrate his graduation. We started planning our dives and he had never seen a dive table, nor had any idea to use one. He said, I was told my computer will do all this for me. I then spent an hour teaching him tables. So now I dove a bit more into his knowledge and asked some questions that required thinking like atmospheric pressure at levels, what is oxygen content in straight air and he was baffled. So I sais ok these are some more advanced items lets see what he learned diving, if he knew how to bring up an unconscious diver, if he learned basic compass navigation, ascent rates, where to make a safety stop etc... This was all new info to him. I know technology has changed, and classes have been sort of "dummed down" and additional classes are offered to teach navigation thought I was just surprised. Is this just how the classes are going now or is it merely a certifying agency thing? Im not trying to knock any agencies, just trying to figure out what else I should really be teaching him as he will be one of my main dive partners and I want to make sure he knows what he needs to.

You did OW, AOW, and Nitrox.

He has done OW.

Keep that in mind when evaluating what his training has given him, everything else aside.

 

[Mahoney86]

You did OW, AOW, and Nitrox.

He has done OW.

Keep that in mind when evaluating what his training has given him, everything else aside.

I absolutely kept that in mind. I remember what my AOW class entailed and I wouldn't expect any of that in a OW class. I spoke with his instructor the other day and he agreed the class has become a lot more lax then it was in previous years. I expressed my concerns and the instructor is actually going to let me buddy join in another pool dive to get some more additional knowledge outside of the current course curriculum so that made my pretty happy. All the more reason to get my buddy enrolled in AOW

 

[Patoux01]

I spoke with his instructor the other day and he agreed the class has become a lot more lax then it was in previous years.

It's gotta be my personality, but I'd totally run away from such an instructor...

 

[boulderjohn]

I absolutely kept that in mind. I remember what my AOW class entailed and I wouldn't expect any of that in a OW class. I spoke with his instructor the other day and he agreed the class has become a lot more lax then it was in previous years. I expressed my concerns and the instructor is actually going to let me buddy join in another pool dive to get some more additional knowledge outside of the current course curriculum so that made my pretty happy. All the more reason to get my buddy enrolled in AOW

It's gotta be my personality, but I'd totally run away from such an instructor...

Patoux1 is absolutely right--that instructor is flat out lying.

I was certified nearly 20 years ago, and I have all my stuff from then. I have been a professional since 2004, and I know what has happened since then. Nothing has happened since I was certified to make the course more lax. No standards have been removed. On the other hand, a couple of years ago a number of changes were made that made the course more challenging, including adding new requirements. I just finished listing some of them in another thread.

Number one cause of diving fatalities?

 

[CptTightPants21]

Lax doesn't have to do anything with different agency standards. Lax is the mentality that exists within those standards. Different shops can demand a higher degree of excellence from its students and instructors or they can demand less--both are within "standards"

 

[boulderjohn]

Lax doesn't have to do anything with different agency standards. Lax is the mentality that exists within those standards. Different shops can demand a higher degree of excellence from its students and instructors or they can demand less--both are within "standards"

I am not sure about your point.

This is what the comment was: "I spoke with his instructor the other day and he agreed the class has become a lot more lax then it was in previous years." According to what you just said, if the course has gotten more lax than it was in previous years, that means that the instructor himself or the instructor's boss made it more lax, correct?

 

[CptTightPants21]

I am not sure about your point.

This is what the comment was: "I spoke with his instructor the other day and he agreed the class has become a lot more lax then it was in previous years." According to what you just said, if the course has gotten more lax than it was in previous years, that means that the instructor himself or the instructor's boss made it more lax, correct?

Correct.

I have witnessed LDS with above average OW skills/standards drop to below average within a year a two; I have also seen the reverse happen with a shop greatly improving. Most of the time it is dependent on the current instructor pool at the shop and/or how much excellence an owner demands.

Changing course standards can mean very little when it comes to quality of instruction. Just look at all the sub-par OW divers, all within "standards"

 

[boulderjohn]

Just look at all the sub-par OW divers, all within "standards"

Were they within standards?

A few years ago I was surprised to learn that my niece had gotten certified while serving in the Air Force in Okinawa. I suggested we go for a dive, but she said she really didn't know how. Her instruction had consisted entirely of two hours in a pool and one dive to a depth of 10 feet. That's it.

A few months later I ran into the daughter of a former neighbor, and she had a nearly identical story of getting certified without coming remotely close to meeting agency standards. She, too, was certified after a short pool session and one short dive.

As for me, when I was certified nearly 20 years ago, it was not until I looked closely at my logbook and saw what the instructor had initialed as being completed that I had any idea how many standards had been skipped.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Were they within standards?

A few years ago I was surprised to learn that my niece had gotten certified while serving in the Air Force in Okinawa. I suggested we go for a dive, but she said she really didn't know how. Her instruction had consisted entirely of two hours in a pool and one dive to a depth of 10 feet. That's it.

A few months later I ran into the daughter of a former neighbor, and she had a nearly identical story of getting certified without coming remotely close to meeting agency standards. She, too, was certified after a short pool session and one short dive.

As for me, when I was certified nearly 20 years ago, it was not until I looked closely at my logbook and saw what the instructor had initialed as being completed that I had any idea how many standards had been skipped.

Come on dude, you are debating semantics here. Plenty of OW students get certified 100% within standards and still have crappy instruction.....

 

[boulderjohn]

Come on dude, you are debating semantics here. Plenty of OW students get certified 100% within standards and still have crappy instruction.....

Oh, I'm sure some do, but I think a whole lot of them got certified by people who did not follow standards. The dive shop that certified me had two classes doing the same thing at the same time, with a total of about 8 students being certified in a space of 3 days. I would guess there was some overlap of classes. Let's say to be conservative that the shop averages a dozen certifications a week. I will round down to estimate 600 certifications a year. The shop is still open. Assuming their policies did not change, that's 12,000 certifications that did not meet standards since I was certified there.