Apocalypse Rebreather

[sea2summit]

Wow, thread blast from the past.

Anyone willing to take bets on which one ships first Prism 2 or Apoc?

Sense the owner of the Apoc has pretty much been exposed for the scam artist that he is and a prism is an actual rebreather It'd have to say prism 2.

 

[Gill Envy]

Anyone willing to take bets on which one ships first Prism 2 or Apoc?

Let's add Apex 3 to that, that was expected to come out, what is it now, 5 years ago?

as far as the Apoc, there is so much mud slinging, it's hard to know who to believe. It may yet come to pass or it may never.

g

 

[wedivebc]

Let's add Apex 3 to that, that was expected to come out, what is it now, 5 years ago?

as far as the Apoc, there is so much mud slinging, it's hard to know who to believe. It may yet come to pass or it may never.

g

I assume you mean APECS 3 as a project promised by ISC but since abandoned? Why do you keep mentioning it in the same vein as APOC?
ISC spent their own money to develop APECS 3 abandoned the project at no cost to you or any of their customers and they certainly took no deposits for devolopment of this project. In fact ISC never officially announce the development of APECS 3 so any information you acquired concerning its release was purely rumor and speculation in contrast to the other company you menioned. I don't know what your problem with ISC is but there is a world of difference between the integrity and standard by which ISC operates and that which APOC has demostrated.
You of all people George, know this to be true.

 

[Gill Envy]

I assume you mean APECS 3 as a project promised by ISC but since abandoned? Why do you keep mentioning it in the same vein as APOC?
ISC spent their own money to develop APECS 3 abandoned the project at no cost to you or any of their customers and they certainly took no deposits for devolopment of this project. In fact ISC never officially announce the development of APECS 3 so any information you acquired concerning its release was purely rumor and speculation in contrast to the other company you menioned. I don't know what your problem with ISC is but there is a world of difference between the integrity and standard by which ISC operates and that which APOC has demostrated.
You of all people George, know this to be true.

Point taken, there was a time that I was holding out for the APECS 3, and I do not mean to put ISC or the Prism in the same category, and I love my meg ... mostly poking fun at the industry as there are lots of examples of projected dates that were missed and things that never came to pass, and yes, none of them that I know of involved pre-orders for a product that did not exist.

As far as the Apoc, something smells fishy about the whole thing to me. I've heard so many stories from both pro and con fanatics, other manufacturers, I just don't know what to believe. There are times when I wonder if it could be the good old boy's club ganging up on a newcomer and other times I have to agree it's looking like it's turning out to be a scam. sigh...

g

 

[padiscubapro]

I assume you mean APECS 3 as a project promised by ISC but since abandoned? Why do you keep mentioning it in the same vein as APOC?
ISC spent their own money to develop APECS 3 abandoned the project at no cost to you or any of their customers and they certainly took no deposits for devolopment of this project. In fact ISC never officially announce the development of APECS 3 so any information you acquired concerning its release was purely rumor and speculation in contrast to the other company you menioned. I don't know what your problem with ISC is but there is a world of difference between the integrity and standard by which ISC operates and that which APOC has demostrated.
You of all people George, know this to be true.

apecs 3 may not have been officially announced but it was far from rumour/speculation.. ISC told many people about it and infact promised more than one person discounted upgrades (when released) to replace those that had the early shearwaters that failed.. I know of one person that waited at least 2 years before finally getting ISC to give other parts in exchange for the difference in price beweeen apec and shearwater electronics.. He was continually told it was comming.... In the end he purchsed a HH lid for his meg...

I definately don't put ISC in the same lite as Deeplife, but it was vaporware none the less..

 

[M_Bipartitus]

I'll speculate....

To me the most revolutionary part of the Apoc (if it ever comes out) is the fact that the BOV is automated so it can force you to bail if conditions are unsafe. Since symptoms of disorientation, panic, and/or blackout are common signs that a major issue is present in the RB loop, and since these symptoms can leave you unable to help yourself effectively, I like the idea of a BOV that can switch on it's own. Will it help RB safety? We may never know, but it sounds like a step in the right direction, especially if you consider the push towards recreational rebreathers for less experienced divers.

I've noticed most of the information trickling out of deeplife the last few months has been related to the BOV. It wouldn't surprise me if the BOV became the main product and the Apoc becomes a sidenote.

 

[Gill Envy]

I don't think this will be truly concluded until either the apoc comes out or they close up shop without paying back those who pre-ordered.

As for the time people have had to wait for a product, on one hand I think people need to own up to just how risky it is to give money to a start up, putting money down on a product that does not exist (particularly in the dive industry), a risk they knowingly took without much recourse and yet on the other hand I certainly feel that if wrong has been committed, those responsible deserve to be held accountable, sued, prosecuted, etc. Gambling on start ups happens all the time, I hope those who have skin in the game understood the risk they were taking. Years ago a broker gave me some wise advise, "never gamble what you can't afford to loose".

We roll our dice in more ways than one getting into rebreathers, I have lost way more than a thousand bucks on dive equipment so far, if that makes anyone feel any better, due to what I would call misinformation and marketing hype and I can sympathize with how frustrating it can be!

Let the buyer beware,

g

 

[rjack321]

seems like a great unit from what ive read.

Its easy to promise. Delivering is a different story.

although ive read some nasty things about the designer alex deas

When people overpromise and underdeliver (or don't deliver at all) what would you expect?

 

[Tienuts]

To me the most revolutionary part of the Apoc (if it ever comes out) is the fact that the BOV is automated so it can force you to bail if conditions are unsafe.

Really? I actually consider that to be the most unsafe part of the unit.

1. To my knowledge, it operates on RF with the pods. RF, is pretty reliable underwater, but I don't want my BOV to be pretty reliable. Plus what happens when interference is generated from my HID or scooter? Or someone else's?

2. what if it bails me out to the wrong gas? An empty cylinder? A bad 1st stage? What if the LP hose to the BOV blows, and it startles me, and my heart rate and respiratory rate go up? Or the dozens of other potential issues I can't think of?

3. Even if it works perfectly, how does it know if conditions are unsafe? This thing still relies on cells to make it's decision on weather to bail you out or not, right? O2 cells are the most failure prone item in a rebreather. CO2 sensors are still an unproven technology, and nobody knows if it actually works underwater.

To have a safe level of automation on a rebreather requires testing and engineering like to what NASA does with the PLISS backpacks. And none of us are paying a million dollars for a rebreather. Until then people need to realize, diving is a hobby which comes with some risk. Some people will die diving, OC or CCR.

Rebreather diving requires discipline, competence, and attention to detail. Like being a pilot of a small aircraft. Some have it, some don't. Try as hard as you want to engineer the idiot out of the rebreather, all you'll do is engineer a better idiot. A lesson we might already be seeing with the Posiedon MK6. Here's a device with revolutionary engineering to make it "safer' and several people have already died on it. Not because it's a bad design - but I suspect because people approach it with the attitude "Bill Stone designed that thing. Its the safest rebreather, you can't die on it." Only to make incredible errors and ignore blatant warning signs the unit is flashing.

I don't want to see anyone hurt, but I think this thing will end up causing more problems than it solves.

 

[M_Bipartitus]

I never said the deeplife/apoc BOV was perfect, rather the most revolutionary idea in the unit. If you are able to offer any ideas to attempt to improve safety, I suggest you mention them or build your own system. It doesn't serve rebreather diving community to oppose any idea that comes out to improve safety. Maybe new ideas will help, maybe they will have unexpected consequences, maybe there will be no difference, but how is doing nothing better? As you mention people die on rebreathers, we owe it to ourselves and our buddies to try to get rebreather diving safer. I don't consider the status quo good enough and I would like to see new ideas. If those new ideas come from Innerspace Systems, rEvo, Poisidon, Juergensen, or Deeplife, I don't care, but I do want to see new things tried.

It is perhaps unfortunate that PADI and others are promoting getting people on rebreathers sooner. I don't see this helping the overall record of rebreathers. I didn't make it to the PADI rebreather seminar at DEMA, but it's my understanding that they are promoting rebreather rental fleets to resorts and looking to greatly increase the availability of rebreathers. KISS has a new SCR to get recreation divers on. At DEMA, a rep from one respected RB manufacturer was trying to convince me that the shop I'm at should buy several new CCR units to build a rental fleet so it's easier to get new rebreather divers in. I see a lot of momentum among training agencies and manufacturers to lower the barrier to rebreathers. I think it a horrible idea at this point in time, but I don't think many of us have a say in it.

As for your points above

1. A decent point. I think I would preferred a wired system. However, as far as I know if the BOV loses communications, the result is not inoperable equipment, but rather a normal BOV.

2. I suspect the result of any of these problems would be the same for an auto-BOV, a normal BOV, or a separate bailout regulator. How is an automatic BOV less safe than a non-automatic BOV in this respect?

3. I also don't see how the issue of O2 cell reliability is any different on this potential rebreather or any other unit. Supposedly they have some cell improvements, but it's pretty safe to say that all rebreather divers must be aware of O2 cell failures. Would you stay on the loop of a meg/rEvo/HH... if the electronics told you the PPO2 was bad?

CO2 monitoring will never be a "proven technology" underwater until someone tries. Personally, I consider the attempt more respectable than the blanket denials that it could improve safety. As you mention no consumer rebreather will be fully vetted before it's released. The best we can hope for is to act as those test divers who provide information and feedback to improve rebreather safety.

Certainly rebreather diving requires discipline, I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise.

As an aside, if a HID or scooter is causing RF interference, it sounds like it's poorly designed. After all most consumer products have to be tested to show that they don't cause RF interference.