Apeks FSR freezing environmental seal?

[Barefoot_Lawyer]

I did my ice diving certification as part of the North American Ice Diving Festival in Minnesota. The air temperature was a brutal 5 degrees Fahrenheit. I did 2 dives back-to-back without getting out of the water with no issues. I then turned my air off on my doubles and worked as a tender / safety diver for an hour or two before attempting to do a third dive.

When I turned the air back on, both of my FSR first stages vented air out of the environmental seal and did not stop. The normal thing to do is to pour hot water on frozen equipment, but because the environmental seals were not sealing, I didn’t want to do that and risk (more?) water getting in.

After I got home, I let the first stages warm up and they worked again.

My questions for the group:

1) do these first stages need to be serviced before diving again? No water got poured on them, but it does seem the environmental seal was compromised for a time.

2) is this expected behavior due to the bitter cold surface temps?

 

[runsongas]

at the very least inspected thoroughly, but a leak from the enviro seal would also require a leak from the main diaphragm, possible due to shrinkage from the cold. check if the diaphragm could use replacement from aging or maybe some light greasing to shore up the sealing.

 

[rsingler]

a leak from the enviro seal would also require a leak from the main diaphragm, possible due to shrinkage from the cold

^--- this!

check if the diaphragm could use...some light greasing to shore up the sealing.

^--- Not this! Putting grease on a diaphragm will help it let go completely. Not a good idea.

I consider this report yet one more data point in the Apeks "leaking diaphragm" story.

Apeks 1st stage diaphragm clamp leaks

My recent experience is that one of the more common failure points in Apeks 1st stages (DST, DS4, US4) is that leaks appear between the 1st stage body and diaphragm clamp (AP1473). I have experienced this with several regulators approaching their recommended 2 year service interval. The...

scubaboard.com

I know they're popular, but I won't dive the models that are metal-to-metal diaphragm clamps. They depend completely on a third party manufacturer that is perhaps providing diaphragms that are a hair too thin. I much prefer a diaphragm that I can torque to specification.

 

[Barefoot_Lawyer]

^--- this!


^--- Not this! Putting grease on a diaphragm will help it let go completely. Not a good idea.

I consider this report yet one more data point in the Apeks "leaking diaphragm" story.

Apeks 1st stage diaphragm clamp leaks

My recent experience is that one of the more common failure points in Apeks 1st stages (DST, DS4, US4) is that leaks appear between the 1st stage body and diaphragm clamp (AP1473). I have experienced this with several regulators approaching their recommended 2 year service interval. The...

scubaboard.com

I know they're popular, but I won't dive the models that are metal-to-metal diaphragm clamps. They depend completely on a third party manufacturer that is perhaps providing diaphragms that are a hair too thin. I much prefer a diaphragm that I can torque to specification.

Interesting thread, @rsingler. Both these FSR first stages are less than one year old and are untouched from the factory other than me installing my hoses on them.

 

[runsongas]

@rsingler it wouldn't be greasing the diaphragm directly but more the surfaces of the other parts for better reassembly (and fill any gaps that would allow saltwater intrusion), the diaphragm clamp on the FSR also should prevent any extrusion issues. if the dry seal was fully airtight and the diaphragm was leaking, it should have blown out the hydrostatic diaphragm instead of exhibiting a leak. checking the surfaces of the FSR body and clamp for any imperfections that the diaphragm is less able to seal against due to loss of flexibility from the cold also may be the cause.

 

[rsingler]

More data...
As part of the Regulator Technician Seminar, I disassembled and reassembled a new'ish Apeks US4 that used to be my diluent reg on my JJ. After putting back the diaphragm that was there since purchase a few years ago and a dozen dives, the reg leaked from the diaphragm clamp, despite being tightened to "metal-to-metal."
The OEM diaphragm is 1.15mm thick, to my measurement.
I replaced it with a Trident aftermarket diaphragm that was 1.5mm, and torqued it to 266in-lb instead of metal to metal (which it couldn't reach without excessive torque), and everything's fine.

 

[buddhasummer]

I've encountered this leakage too but on a current production AL Titan I built from new parts. Although the diaphragm was new I had to swap it out with another new one.

In the AL range interestingly the old Conshelf and early Titan used a diaphragm washer with no metal to metal contact.

Currently only the Legend still uses the diaphragm washer and no metal to metal contact. Must say that one leakage has given me pause. Hmmmm.....

 

[Nemrod]

View attachment 774350

at the very least inspected thoroughly, but a leak from the enviro seal would also require a leak from the main diaphragm, possible due to shrinkage from the cold. check if the diaphragm could use replacement from aging or maybe some light greasing to shore up the sealing.

I don't know how you guys walk around with those things (diaphragm first stages that is) .

 

[buddhasummer]

You James are a closet diaphragm user, I've seen evidence

 

[Nemrod]

The dive buddy to whom I gifted a nearly new Titan first told me the diaphragm was slightly leaking! It was not leaking about 6 years ago when I last used it! Like, man, what the heck, a Mk 2 would not complain about sitting in a box for a few years .

Simon, I am trying to improve myself.

IMO, seriously, this is a worrisome subject to me because I have had the ambient diaphragm split on one reg, blow out on another and then a dive friend had a failure of similar nature, not completely understood, while in a cave recently.

I know I bought a new Mk 17 but if I were to do this purchase again today, Mk 25 Evo baby!!!!!!! All the way.

Not sure there is an improvement with the cap tightening direct to the diaphragm vs having a nylon or phenolic slip washer in between. I guess I need to take another dive into the Legend first (my wife's).