AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[DevonDiver]

Your perspective is also shaped by the fact that for you, losing a day of diving in a tropical paradise is no big deal ... you can always come back any day you want and do it again. For most divers, those opportunities are rare and expensive ... and in some cases, a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Much of your perspective is shaped by the fact that you do it every day ... and that diving isn't an adventure for you, it's a job.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I do get what you mean, but I had an opinion on check outs long before I moved to Asia.

Back when I was a normal, affluent, human being, I took vacations just like everyone else. I used to head down to the Maldives. Checkout dives seem routine on the varied atoll resorts there.

The reason for checkouts was because they ran two boats every day. One boat for 'novices', the other for 'advanced'. The 'advanced' boat went to the deeper (60-100') inter-atoll sites where there were strong currents, but a much better chance of seeing sharks and pelagics.

The rule for check outs was applied without exception. Even for me - at the time a BSAC instructor teaching in the military. No sweat... I saw the sense in it.

Of course, I sailed through the checkout. Having to demonstrate some buoyancy control, mask remove/replace etc. Basically the core OW skills. It wasn't so much about the skills themselves, but rather your comfort and confidence doing them.

Yeah, I missed the first morning dive trip because of it. Gutted.. but suck it up big boy... I didnt travel to paradise to spend my time sulking about perceived 'injustices'. Rules are rules and I understood the reasoning behind them. No hissy fits and tantrums from me.

But my girlfriend, back then, didn't sail through her checkout. She was a rescue diver, but had rushed through those qualifications in the UK, specifically in preparation for that trip.

I didn't train her - I have professional reservations about training family and partners directly. Anyway, she had a less than stellar OW instructor in the UK and the experience had damaged her confidence. She still had some big issues with getting water in her faceever since her OW and got panicky removing or clearing her mask.

Despite her 'advanced' qualification, she showed signs of stress and difficulty on her check out...and was precluded from the 'advanced' trips. It was, I admit, a fair judgement by the instructor.

Of course, that sucked big time for me. My choice was either don't dive with my girlfriend, or book myself onto the far less stimulating 'baby boat' every day. So, baby boat it was...

Nonetheless, I understood the reasoning and prudence behind the policy completely. No sulking, no sense of entitlement and no rants about 'the paying customer is always right' etc.

Being stuck on the baby boat wasn't what I wanted. Every evening I had to sit in the restaurant and listen to the 'big boat' divers raving on about their amazing dives and what they'd seen that day.

My girlfriend even felt guilty about it...and more than a little frustrated, because she'd put in the training effort before the trip. But we both knew she wasn't reliably comfortable in the water.

To be honest, if it weren't for the check out policy, we (or more accurately - me) would have been imprudent and opted to do the 'advanced' trips regardless of my girlfriend's compromised confidence. She'd have done it so as to not ruin my trip. Insidious, unspoken, peer pressure. It happens a lot.

In hindsight, it was a bloody good policy by the dive center. Doing deep dives in strong current was well beyond my girlfriend's comfort zone. It was an accident waiting to happen.

The checkout dives took the decision making out of the diver's hands. In doing so, it eliminated the natural, and compelling, temptation to exceed your limits because... you know....'expensive dream trip' and everything....

Put ego and 'getting what you want' to one side and you can see the benefits of it.

Dives trips ARE expensive and we don't get much opportunity to do them. We naturally want to extract every possible iota of enjoyment from them.

That's precisely WHY our judgement can become so imprudent and flawed.

People make stupid decisions... and take stupid risks... because they spend a lot of money on dream diving trips. They don't want to be constrained in the slightest, even when they'd secretly admit to themselves they're doing something beyond their competency.

As an aside... that Maldives trip had a positive outcome.

By week 2, my girlfriend had done a big bunch of dives and had relaxed immensely. We'd also had the opportunity to practice her stressor skills together repeatedly.

She retook the checkout dive and was unreservedly approved to join the 'advanced' boat thereafter. At that stage, she was genuinely capable and confident.

Instead of suffering those more challenging dives, probably in silence, and getting more nervous.... She was 'forced' to keep it easy at the start. It resulted in her gaining confidence instead. Result! She saw her first whale shark that week. The following year she became a divemaster. Two years later, she was an instructor... and did really well teaching nervous students.

 

[Storker]

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

A number of posts have been removed as being either too snarky for Basic, or off topic. This will be my last warning, and further violations of the special rules for Basic Scuba Discussions may well be rewarded with read-only rights to the thread.

If anyone is uncertain about the rules for Basic, the most pertinent part was quoted in my previous modpost. They are easily found at the top of the forum listing.

---

 

[Aotus]

My AOW training was pathetic. It doesn't deserve to be respected!

Mine too. Same for Rescue.

 

[billt4sf]

I have been an AOW and Rescue Diver for several years now and, aside from the fact that I learned a lot, it seems that those ratings do not get the respect that I feel they deserve from many dive ops I have used in the past. Many dive ops will still require check out dives or even withhold going to certain spots until I have proven myself in their eyes. It seems to me that for many dive ops AOW and RD really mean nothing. Could this be because those shops use the classes more to generate revenue than they do to impart knowledge? Is it because these classes are basically "no fail" classes? Is there another reason that I am not aware of? Am I just choosing ops that are wrong for me? I am having a hard time understanding. Maybe I look unsafe and seem to need more attention LOL, though I don't think so. What are your thoughts?
RichH

Good.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I can relate to @DevonDiver Post. (I'm not the girlfriend in question BTW) I was that person

In the early days on my club diving, I was encouraged to put my name on 2 day trip. This trip goes to the north of Oman, into the Musandam, a place known for it's difficult conditions and currents.

A few weeks before hand one of the club instructors expressed a desire to buddy me on a normal club dive (which I was grateful to accept) Before we dived he told me he wanted to do a skills check. Like the story above, I had an issue with mask clearing. Long story short, I was told I didn't have he required skill level to attend the 2 day trip.

Being in a club word soon gets round, to say I was deflated is an understatement. However being a club people came forward and offered to help fix my skills, including some of the more senior members - who at the time I really didn't know nor interact with.

By the next trip my name was put down by the person who failed me previously, even adding he was prepared to buddy me.

I learnt a lot at that point, and never took my training for granted again. It was a turning point in my diving attitude.

As far as I'm aware, only BSAC and GUE at the basic level are prepared to fail people. Having a fail certain made me a better diver, I get the impression others just go through the motion knowing they will pass.

Back to the subject, often people's last dive is at their last vacation, maybe a year ago. I suspect the majority of divers would be happy to have their basic skills "refreshed" in a controlled manner, giving them the confidence that in the dives ahead if they thought about it.

 

[Edward3c]

As far as I'm aware, only BSAC and GUE at the basic level are prepared to fail people. Having a fail certain made me a better diver, I get the impression others just go through the motion knowing they will pass.

I don't fail people, I advise them they haven't meet the standard required and to view the session as a practice. I'm sure most of the GUI instructors do a similar thing.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I don't fail people, I advise them they haven't meet the standard required and to view the session as a practice. I'm sure most of the GUI instructors do a similar thing.

Sorry Edward, bad choice of words on my part.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I do get what you mean, but I had an opinion on check outs long before I moved to Asia.

Back when I was a normal, affluent, human being, I took vacations just like everyone else. I used to head down to the Maldives. Checkout dives seem routine on the varied atoll resorts there.

The reason for checkouts was because they ran two boats every day. One boat for 'novices', the other for 'advanced'. The 'advanced' boat went to the deeper (60-100') inter-atoll sites where there were strong currents, but a much better chance of seeing sharks and pelagics.

The rule for check outs was applied without exception. Even for me - at the time a BSAC instructor teaching in the military. No sweat... I saw the sense in it.

Of course, I sailed through the checkout. Having to demonstrate some buoyancy control, mask remove/replace etc. Basically the core OW skills. It wasn't so much about the skills themselves, but rather your comfort and confidence doing them.

Yeah, I missed the first morning dive trip because of it. Gutted.. but suck it up big boy... I didnt travel to paradise to spend my time sulking about perceived 'injustices'. Rules are rules and I understood the reasoning behind them. No hissy fits and tantrums from me.

But my girlfriend, back then, didn't sail through her checkout. She was a rescue diver, but had rushed through those qualifications in the UK, specifically in preparation for that trip.

I didn't train her - I have professional reservations about training family and partners directly. Anyway, she had a less than stellar OW instructor in the UK and the experience had damaged her confidence. She still had some big issues with getting water in her faceever since her OW and got panicky removing or clearing her mask.

Despite her 'advanced' qualification, she showed signs of stress and difficulty on her check out...and was precluded from the 'advanced' trips. It was, I admit, a fair judgement by the instructor.

Of course, that sucked big time for me. My choice was either don't dive with my girlfriend, or book myself onto the far less stimulating 'baby boat' every day. So, baby boat it was...

Nonetheless, I understood the reasoning and prudence behind the policy completely. No sulking, no sense of entitlement and no rants about 'the paying customer is always right' etc.

Being stuck on the baby boat wasn't what I wanted. Every evening I had to sit in the restaurant and listen to the 'big boat' divers raving on about their amazing dives and what they'd seen that day.

My girlfriend even felt guilty about it...and more than a little frustrated, because she'd put in the training effort before the trip. But we both knew she wasn't reliably comfortable in the water.

To be honest, if it weren't for the check out policy, we (or more accurately - me) would have been imprudent and opted to do the 'advanced' trips regardless of my girlfriend's compromised confidence. She'd have done it so as to not ruin my trip. Insidious, unspoken, peer pressure. It happens a lot.

In hindsight, it was a bloody good policy by the dive center. Doing deep dives in strong current was well beyond my girlfriend's comfort zone. It was an accident waiting to happen.

The checkout dives took the decision making out of the diver's hands. In doing so, it eliminated the natural, and compelling, temptation to exceed your limits because... you know....'expensive dream trip' and everything....

Put ego and 'getting what you want' to one side and you can see the benefits of it.

Dives trips ARE expensive and we don't get much opportunity to do them. We naturally want to extract every possible iota of enjoyment from them.

That's precisely WHY our judgement can become so imprudent and flawed.

People make stupid decisions... and take stupid risks... because they spend a lot of money on dream diving trips. They don't want to be constrained in the slightest, even when they'd secretly admit to themselves they're doing something beyond their competency.

As an aside... that Maldives trip had a positive outcome.

By week 2, my girlfriend had done a big bunch of dives and had relaxed immensely. We'd also had the opportunity to practice her stressor skills together repeatedly.

She retook the checkout dive and was unreservedly approved to join the 'advanced' boat thereafter. At that stage, she was genuinely capable and confident.

Instead of suffering those more challenging dives, probably in silence, and getting more nervous.... She was 'forced' to keep it easy at the start. It resulted in her gaining confidence instead. Result! She saw her first whale shark that week. The following year she became a divemaster. Two years later, she was an instructor... and did really well teaching nervous students.

Andy, I don't disagree with you ... I was simply pointing out that perspectives will be different between dive professionals and non-pros ... particularly those latter who are relatively inexperienced or who have limited diving opportunities available in their lives. And it's particularly important not to be dismissive of the comments and questions of someone simply because they have less experience than we do ... their perspective is also important, and should not be simply dismissed with an "I have way more experience than you do" approach to the conversation. Constructive dialogue entails, at times, viewing the discussion from the perspective of the other person.

As I've said, checkout dives are common, and I've experienced them in many forms throughout my travels. Generally they are not a burden. Sometimes they are ... and sometimes they're done in a way that leaves you scratching your head and asking yourself why they wasted your time. As in the example I have used a couple times, the dive offered no conceivable benefit ... like a lot of the training that people constantly complain about, benefit often gets lost when people do something out of routine rather than because they lack an understanding of why it's being done. And in the case of a dive op, that's a disservice to your customers. Getting back to perspective, it tends to cause your clients to question the value of your services. Again, to use examples, there was a massive difference in the value of the checkout dive I did in Raja Ampat vs the one I did more recently in Fiji for exactly the reasons I just explained ... the latter was more a waste of time than it was of any perceived or real benefit to either me or the dive op. It was just a routine in how they do things that allowed them to check a box that said they did it ... much like the dive training you mentioned your girlfriend received.

I get that a c-card is not a clear indication of skills achieved ... I have often said the same thing on ScubaBoard over the years. And that equal training does not equate to equal ability. Even within the same class, different students will come away with different abilities, based on both mental and physical talents and limitations. And a checkout dive is a good way ... perhaps the best way ... for a dive op to determine how to best serve their clients in terms of site selection and placing divers in groups that will allow them to get the most of their diving vacation. But ... no different than training ... it needs to be conducted in a way that makes sense to the person receiving it ... the client ... otherwise, it's a waste of time.

In summary, I think we are generally in agreement that the checkout dive has the potential for value ... but a great deal of the value is, or is not, realized based on how and when it is conducted. A good dive op will do so in a way that doesn't leave a client complaining about wasted time or wondering what the purpose is ... pretty much the same differentiation you get when someone takes a class and either comes away well-satisfied or feeling like they didn't learn anything. In the latter case, they both get the same card ... just as in the former, they both get a checkout dive. But the difference is in how the provider delivers the service. As dive professionals, that's on us to put some thought into ... and looking at it from the perspective of the client is an essential part of providing the service.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Neilwood]

Bob, I do get what you mean, but I had an opinion on check outs long before I moved to Asia.

Back when I was a normal, affluent, human being, I took vacations just like everyone else. I used to head down to the Maldives. Checkout dives seem routine on the varied atoll resorts there.

The reason for checkouts was because they ran two boats every day. One boat for 'novices', the other for 'advanced'. The 'advanced' boat went to the deeper (60-100') inter-atoll sites where there were strong currents, but a much better chance of seeing sharks and pelagics.

The rule for check outs was applied without exception. Even for me - at the time a BSAC instructor teaching in the military. No sweat... I saw the sense in it.

Of course, I sailed through the checkout. Having to demonstrate some buoyancy control, mask remove/replace etc. Basically the core OW skills. It wasn't so much about the skills themselves, but rather your comfort and confidence doing them.

Yeah, I missed the first morning dive trip because of it. Gutted.. but suck it up big boy... I didnt travel to paradise to spend my time sulking about perceived 'injustices'. Rules are rules and I understood the reasoning behind them. No hissy fits and tantrums from me.

But my girlfriend, back then, didn't sail through her checkout. She was a rescue diver, but had rushed through those qualifications in the UK, specifically in preparation for that trip.

I didn't train her - I have professional reservations about training family and partners directly. Anyway, she had a less than stellar OW instructor in the UK and the experience had damaged her confidence. She still had some big issues with getting water in her faceever since her OW and got panicky removing or clearing her mask.

Despite her 'advanced' qualification, she showed signs of stress and difficulty on her check out...and was precluded from the 'advanced' trips. It was, I admit, a fair judgement by the instructor.

Of course, that sucked big time for me. My choice was either don't dive with my girlfriend, or book myself onto the far less stimulating 'baby boat' every day. So, baby boat it was...

Nonetheless, I understood the reasoning and prudence behind the policy completely. No sulking, no sense of entitlement and no rants about 'the paying customer is always right' etc.

Being stuck on the baby boat wasn't what I wanted. Every evening I had to sit in the restaurant and listen to the 'big boat' divers raving on about their amazing dives and what they'd seen that day.

My girlfriend even felt guilty about it...and more than a little frustrated, because she'd put in the training effort before the trip. But we both knew she wasn't reliably comfortable in the water.

To be honest, if it weren't for the check out policy, we (or more accurately - me) would have been imprudent and opted to do the 'advanced' trips regardless of my girlfriend's compromised confidence. She'd have done it so as to not ruin my trip. Insidious, unspoken, peer pressure. It happens a lot.

In hindsight, it was a bloody good policy by the dive center. Doing deep dives in strong current was well beyond my girlfriend's comfort zone. It was an accident waiting to happen.

The checkout dives took the decision making out of the diver's hands. In doing so, it eliminated the natural, and compelling, temptation to exceed your limits because... you know....'expensive dream trip' and everything....

Put ego and 'getting what you want' to one side and you can see the benefits of it.

Dives trips ARE expensive and we don't get much opportunity to do them. We naturally want to extract every possible iota of enjoyment from them.

That's precisely WHY our judgement can become so imprudent and flawed.

People make stupid decisions... and take stupid risks... because they spend a lot of money on dream diving trips. They don't want to be constrained in the slightest, even when they'd secretly admit to themselves they're doing something beyond their competency.

As an aside... that Maldives trip had a positive outcome.

By week 2, my girlfriend had done a big bunch of dives and had relaxed immensely. We'd also had the opportunity to practice her stressor skills together repeatedly.

She retook the checkout dive and was unreservedly approved to join the 'advanced' boat thereafter. At that stage, she was genuinely capable and confident.

Instead of suffering those more challenging dives, probably in silence, and getting more nervous.... She was 'forced' to keep it easy at the start. It resulted in her gaining confidence instead. Result! She saw her first whale shark that week. The following year she became a divemaster. Two years later, she was an instructor... and did really well teaching nervous students.

I think it is fairly possible that, had she tried some of the more extreme dives at the start of your trip, that she might have scared herself enough to put he off diving permanently. By having to slow down and re-examine her skill level, it probably pushed (or helped push) her into being a better, more confident and more aware diver.

I take out from your previous post a confident diver is not necessarily a good diver - a sentiment that I wholeheartedly agree with. It is hard to be self critical and actually admit to yourself that are not actually a dive god and that your skills might not be up doing a certain dive.

I decided to sit out what was reportedly a very nice dive on the Giannis D at Abu Nuhas in the Red Sea because I felt it was pushing my skills a bit too far. The previous day had been a dive on the Chrisoula K which I had found a bit uncomfortable due to the level of surge (managed it though) but the briefing for the Giannis D suggested a stronger surge on that wreck due to it being on the corner of the reef. Had I pushed it, I think I would have been at the very edge of comfort and skill- a place where I don't like to be.

 

[Lorenzoid]

... and that was my real problem with that bogus checkout dive at CocoView ... despite the fact that we arrived at 10 in the morning, they wouldn't let us dive that day because we need to demonstrate (by kneeling in a few feet of water) that we were capable of clearing a mask and recovering a regulator.

From all I have heard about CocoView, I would have thought CocoView would be less rigid than AKR. Anthony's Key Resort (for those who don't know, also on the island of Roatan like CocoView) had us do our check-out just before our boat was to leave the dock on the first dive of our stay. We jumped off the stern, and my wife and I did an S-drill and some other checks. I don't know what the other divers did or what we were asked to do. We did our own check--the same kind we do everywhere. It was all very brief, not closely supervised, and did not impact our dive time at all. We left the dock on schedule for the first dive. This is one of the instances I had in mind when I made my comments above about not having experienced any delay due to check-outs. And that check-out at AKR was the most I have ever been asked to do.

I have to say I would be annoyed if I arrived at 10 am with the expectation of diving and was told I could not dive that day because they could not accommodate giving me the check-out until the next day. It sounds like there are indeed some places in the world--Andy also mentions the Maldives--where the check-out is more onerous than I have experienced. Oh well. So long as they make me aware of it in advance, and it doesn't impact the dives I believe I have arranged, I don't mind doing a brief check-out.