Anybody feel like giving a rundown of back inflate BCDs to a SCUBA noob?

[tbone1004]

Dan, what you said is 100% true on the wings, they revolutionized SOME of the wing styles, mainly going from horseshoe to full circles, but the plates and harness were out long before that and few manufacturers follow the Halcyon wing styles. The Eclipse is a brilliant wing design, I still don't like the Evolve style wings for doubles and think that if the old Classic wing had the air passage cross under it would have taken off better, but it certainly isn't the style that everything is based on today.
You didn't offend me at all, but you have to give credit where credit is due and while Halcyon did revolutionize the wing style with the circular wing, I think they have a flatter plate than the Dive Rite which some like better, but Dive Rite did standardize the bolt spacing, the basic backplate style, and the invented the STA. Coming out sounding like Halcyon was the first and is the almighty power on BP/W's just isn't true, and it still doesn't justify the 50%+ premium that JJ is charging.

Obviously he is selling plenty of them, but the margins they are making on those are extraordinary for a product that is still no better than much of the competition, I might pay a 10% premium for it, but not a 50-100%.

1979 Bill Flanagans stop sign
1980 First Dive Rite Plate, really hasn't changed the basic dimensions since then
1986 Dive Rite Classic wing
1996ish GUE/Halcyon founded. First circular wing which was the innovation, that and the fact that they use an impregnated fabric for the inner bladder instead of straight butyl rubber, but few other manufacturers have copied those wing shapes or the inner bladder fabric. Many have chosen the circular design over horseshoe though.

I like JJ and Halcyon, I know many of the guys that were in the original Wakulla projects and many of the founders. I have no affiliation to Dive Rite and don't believe their gear is superior to any others, but they were the first

 

[divad]

........

 

[phlegm]

I see that I didn't check my spelling. Sorry. I switched to a DiveRite Transplate. BP/W with a STA. Yes its very sturdy but you may have been thinking of a TransPack maybe?

ah yep, my bad

 

[danvolker]

Dan, what you said is 100% true on the wings, they revolutionized SOME of the wing styles, mainly going from horseshoe to full circles, but the plates and harness were out long before that and few manufacturers follow the Halcyon wing styles. The Eclipse is a brilliant wing design, I still don't like the Evolve style wings for doubles and think that if the old Classic wing had the air passage cross under it would have taken off better, but it certainly isn't the style that everything is based on today.
You didn't offend me at all, but you have to give credit where credit is due and while Halcyon did revolutionize the wing style with the circular wing, I think they have a flatter plate than the Dive Rite which some like better, but Dive Rite did standardize the bolt spacing, the basic backplate style, and the invented the STA. Coming out sounding like Halcyon was the first and is the almighty power on BP/W's just isn't true, and it still doesn't justify the 50%+ premium that JJ is charging.

Obviously he is selling plenty of them, but the margins they are making on those are extraordinary for a product that is still no better than much of the competition, I might pay a 10% premium for it, but not a 50-100%.

1979 Bill Flanagans stop sign
1980 First Dive Rite Plate, really hasn't changed the basic dimensions since then
1986 Dive Rite Classic wing
1996ish GUE/Halcyon founded. First circular wing which was the innovation, that and the fact that they use an impregnated fabric for the inner bladder instead of straight butyl rubber, but few other manufacturers have copied those wing shapes or the inner bladder fabric. Many have chosen the circular design over horseshoe though.

I like JJ and Halcyon, I know many of the guys that were in the original Wakulla projects and many of the founders. I have no affiliation to Dive Rite and don't believe their gear is superior to any others, but they were the first

Tbone, Between your memory and mine, I think we are getting a lot closer to the actual issues back in the mid-nineties.
And I agree with you that the backplate that DiveRite developed, was a huge improvement over anything else in use at the time....So they really do deserve to be remembered for this forward development...

I know there were some videos I can try to get my hands on, that showed the A-B comparisons we used to do for interested divers or Dive Shops at DEMA.....Where we would have a Dive Rite Wing, Halcyon, and I think a couple of other brands in contention at the time. The really huge thing that I recall from this, was that the Cave diving community had some real issues with their wings puncturing in Cave penetration dives...or the fear of this happening, as the outer material, and the bladders, had very poor puncture resistance, and I believe were also hard to inspect to determine if you were close to having a problem... When the other Wings were opened up, and the bladders compared to Halcyon, this overall way of looking at what was creating the safety for the diver, was the Holy Grail moment that instantly made the SALE....While a recreational diver does not often bump in to a sharp object and puncture their BC, if they did, it is not necessarily all that terrible a problem....For a Diver thousands of feet into a cave, to suddenly lose bouyancy, between the silting potential and everything else involved, this safety and puncture resistance had been a big complaint of the Cave community prior to Halcyon--complaints that had fallen on deaf ears for many years....So this was a big part of the revolution in an Equipment MFG listening to the market, and trying to build what was being asked for....
As you say, the shape of the Halcyon wings, and the choices to allow ideal matching of tanks to lift needs was also a MAJOR GIFT BACK TO THE DIVE COMMUNITIES... Prior to Halcyon, there was sloppyness in the way the wings would fold or taco over the tanks, their was poor matching of the ideal lift to most tank combinations....Also way to many divers with 100 pounds of dangerous lift, when they needed more like 40 pounds or 50 pounds----and beyond the danger issue, was the huge drag and workload of pulling all this mass through the water collumn, as it was not nearly as streamlined as it could be...

In any event, DiveRite and Scubapro and a half dozen new startups, saw that a much bigger market existed for tech and cave and pseudo-tech....and all of a sudden, AFTER Halcyon, there was a rush to listen, and develop in exactly the directions that Halcyon had jumped into on their own---a jump to LISTEN to what real divers actually wanted, not just offerings of new colors or pocket that diveshop showroom artists would ask for

Today, there are many good BP/Wing choices....It is not just Halcyon and Diverite in the game with well evolved wings and plates, etc....Many newcomers are here....But I think the real strengths of a company like Halcyon or DiveRite, is the Creativity and "Market Driven Innovation" they are capable of.

 

[boysie]

Hi.
It may be wrong in some people's eye, but I have my own kit and am only a recreational diver with only 30+ plus dives, I ended up using and buying a halcyon wing after using jacket Bcd's, I feel more comfortable using a wing albeit it took a bit of time getting to used to it, i did my peak performance buoyancy course the day I bought it, a good tip
I don't look back. And it's nice to have your own your own kit


Sent from Boysies iPad using Tapatalk

 

[phlegm]

For some closure for this thread, here's what I'm planning on getting (please pipe up if you think I'm going for something wildly inappropriate!):

DRiS BP&W rig - 28lbl Trianta Wing, Hog SS plate, SS cambands, STA.

Seac Synchro piston regs - Synchro "P" Octo Complete Regulator Set-up w/First Stage YOKE Model

I'm hoping this is a good setup. The wing should just be suffienct; I'll be diving a 7mm wetsuit and as for weight, the staff at my LDS reckoned that if I dived with 2kg in a 3mm then I'd be looking at around 10kg in a 7mm (sound about right?). 28lb of lift is a bit over 12kg so that should hopefully be about right.

I've heard DIN is the preferable option for regs in regards to safety, but I think yoke makes the most sense as I understand it's immeasurably more common here in Australia.

Thinking of going the long hose / necklace setup for my hoses. What length would people recommend for these? I've heard 7' thrown around a lot but this sounds excessive for a rec diver like me (not to mention cumbersome). I don't have cave quals so I wouldn't really need to share air single file. Is 5' a good compromise? How long should the short hose alternate be? I really just want a streamlined routing (I found my octo always got in the way wherever I stowed it during my OW dives).

Getting Hog Tech 2 fins, I've got my suit and weight belt, just need a SPG/depth combo and we're away!

 

[Aquavelvet]

For OW dives, a 5' primary hose is a perfectly good compromise. It doesn't need to be hooked underneath anything on your right side, just routed under your right arm before crossing your chest. To go around the back of your neck. I use this setup for warm water diving where I may or may not be using a can light.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[danvolker]

For some closure for this thread, here's what I'm planning on getting (please pipe up if you think I'm going for something wildly inappropriate!):

DRiS BP&W rig - 28lbl Trianta Wing, Hog SS plate, SS cambands, STA.

Seac Synchro piston regs - Synchro "P" Octo Complete Regulator Set-up w/First Stage YOKE Model

I'm hoping this is a good setup. The wing should just be suffienct; I'll be diving a 7mm wetsuit and as for weight, the staff at my LDS reckoned that if I dived with 2kg in a 3mm then I'd be looking at around 10kg in a 7mm (sound about right?). 28lb of lift is a bit over 12kg so that should hopefully be about right.

I've heard DIN is the preferable option for regs in regards to safety, but I think yoke makes the most sense as I understand it's immeasurably more common here in Australia.

Thinking of going the long hose / necklace setup for my hoses. What length would people recommend for these? I've heard 7' thrown around a lot but this sounds excessive for a rec diver like me (not to mention cumbersome). I don't have cave quals so I wouldn't really need to share air single file. Is 5' a good compromise? How long should the short hose alternate be? I really just want a streamlined routing (I found my octo always got in the way wherever I stowed it during my OW dives).

Getting Hog Tech 2 fins, I've got my suit and weight belt, just need a SPG/depth combo and we're away!

Looks like a nice BP/wing to me....with your 7mm suit, you will have essentially the same buoyancy and weighting issues as my wife, with her 30 pound lift halcyon wing...hers being the Aqualung 7/8 semi Dry....She has far more lift than she needs , wearing 18 pounds of weight total ( sta/plate/weightbelt/tank hp100).
As I said earlier, you only need to have it easy to be dead neutral....there is no reason to have an extra 30 pounds or even extra 10 pounds of lift at the bottom of your dive ( whether 60 feet or 160 feet), you just need neutral.
Also, as Sandra uses freedive fins, she could swim 18 pounds up to the surface with zero air in her wing, if she so desired. This would be another one of my pokes at split fins, as they could not be counted on for the thrust and torque you may want some day, to lift something, or to beat some current, or whatever. With the BP/Wing system you have chosen, you should be very slick in the water, meaning you will be able to do KICK and GLIDE, and meaning freedive fins would perform exponentially better for you than soft, floppy splits. Freedive fins are not for cave, or for exploration level deep penetrations into shipwrecks with low overhead ceilings you could scrape with fin tips...but for big rooms in ships that everyone swims into, with easy access in and out, and for reefs, there is no fin design that can match good freedive fins.
Here is the type of a shipwreck penetration I use freedive fins for, and where they are far superior to splits or even Jetfins:
[video=youtube_share;vGB8XNq8QF0]http://youtu.be/vGB8XNq8QF0?list=UUsM5Za9Kc3DbP7Qo3-Zmz9w[/video]
This is the wreck of the Mispah off Singer Island, Palm Beach. The Goliaths hang out here all year--this was the very beginning of the aggregation diving.
Currents can run from less than a mile per hour, to 3 or 4 mph....good boats used drift drops, not lines from the surface to get you on the wreck.....and this is a very easy wreck dive. But, having floppy fins like splits will mean you get limited to how easy it is for you to head back to the south.....In this vid, I approach with current pushing me right along, from the South, heading north....You can see the flightplan from the drift drop the captain gave me, had me nearing bottom by the beginning part of the wreck that aims to the south...by the side of the hull. The way I chose to penetrate, without working, was to let the current run me along the side of the hull, then I just tucked in behind the wreck, where the eddie effect ( like in white water), pulls you right back into the rear of the wreck....then I swam up over the stern, and then ducked down into one of the holes divers penetrate into the large room inside. The actual penetration begins at around 50 seconds in, and you can also see I cause no silting with my freedive fins on the silty bottom. This is a great dive for BP/wing divers to be able to glide around, effortlessly, and be able to go up current any time you might want to, if there is some large baitball up by the bow, or anything really interesting going on that you want access to. You can see the other divers on this wreck, mostly hiding out of the current, whereas with my freedive fins, I am going anywhere the Goliaths go, and you can see I am all over the wreck, moving about as easily as the goliaths are.


As to the 5 foot hose or 7 foot, there is nothing wrong with the 5 for open ocean diving...
On the other hand, even without a can light, you can loop the 7 foot hose around your torso and then make a U shape with the part on your bottom right side, hold it together and push it down and through the waist belt for the harness....so that about 8 inches or so is below the waiste belt....then pull the back side of the U tight, find the tension most comfortable for your dive, and it will stay right there unless you donate your reg--in which case it pulls free easily. The plus to this, is that sharing with a 7 foot hose is so easy, almost fun...it is almost like the other diver being on a hooka

 

[stuartv]

I'll be diving a 7mm wetsuit and as for weight, the staff at my LDS reckoned that if I dived with 2kg in a 3mm then I'd be looking at around 10kg in a 7mm (sound about right?).

Just another data point:

When I dive in 7mm vs a 3/2, I only need to add 10 pounds (4.5kg) of additional weight. Adding 8kg sounds like a lot. Or maybe it's right for a new 7mm suit and I have needed less because I've been diving in used 7mm suits, so maybe they've already been crushed down a bit and are less buoyant.

That said, I'm a new diver, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, but from the things I have read around here, it seems like a 28# wing is probably a good choice for diving in a 7mm suit, with a single (steel or aluminum) tank.

 

[TSandM]

A 5' hose works quite well, so long as you are not very broad across the shoulders, or very deep in the torso. The backup reg can be left on the 24" hose that comes with a standard setup, although a 22" hose makes things a little neater.