Anti Whaling Round ???

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Wildcard:
Didn't you treaten me for making a statement about wacking a dogs nose with a newspaper? You have some twisted views.
I still would punch you in the face if I saw you hitting a dog and thats not a threat of any kind, its a simple fact. Being crule to animals and hunting them are two rather separate things.
Hitting a dog is intended to inflict pain, hunting it would be intended to kill it in the most humane way possible.
Sorry to say so but a bullet in the head is considered to be far less cruel than torture..

And what exactly is so contradictive with me not being against hunting while being against animal cruelty btw?
 
boulderjohn:
What makes whales more intelligent an sensitive and social than a moose or a fox?

Probably the same thing that makes a human more intelligent and sensitive and social than a fox--its brain.

Or do you think it's OK to kill and eat humans, too? After all, we're just another mammal.

Have you ever compared brain size of whales to brain size in humans?

OK, maybe you will argue that size isn't everything.

Read a little and learn what science has discovered over the years about the incredible intelligence of these creatures. The problem is that they are intelligent in ways that we don't know. Maybe they can't speak Norwegian, but they can do things mentally that we can only barely hope to understand some day.

So basically you say it's not ok to kill whales, compared to fox for example, because they are more intelligent creatures.

Pigs are considered extremely intelligent. Some mentally handicaped people are considered less intelligent than pigs (no disrespect intended).

So according to you, it would be a worse crime to kill a pig than a mentally handicaped person if the pig is more intelligent.

I'll be clear, I'm against killing any endangered specie, from cods or soles to whales or gorillas, if it is proven that they are endangered. Intelligence, cuddliness, beauty or colors are not relevant since who are we to decide what intelligence or beauty is. We are not God, even though some people are wannabe Gods.
 
It would seem some of the intelligent species got it wrong again according to this 2005 report


'No surge' in minke whale numbers
By Paul Rincon
BBC News science reporter, in Washington DC



Minke whales reach about 10m at maturity (Image: Francois Gohier)
Genetic research on Tokyo whale meat reveals that minke whales may not be experiencing an unprecedented surge in numbers
as had previously been thought.

It was said the species' success had hampered the recovery of other whales, and that hunting of minkes would be sustainable and beneficial.

But the tests indicate no such number boom - only a steady population growth over a period of a million years.

The results were outlined at a major science conference in Washington DC.

Steve Palumbi, of Stanford University in California, examined whale meat in Japanese shops.

The meat, sold legally, comes from carcasses of whales taken for scientific research under the rules set down by the International Whaling Commission.

The American scientist looked at the variations in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).

This DNA is found in the cell's "powerhouses" and is passed down through the generations on the maternal side only.

Because researchers know how quickly mtDNA accumulates errors, they can assign rough timescales to the population changes they see.

Climate conundrum

The Stanford researcher used DNA sequences from 179 individuals to build a family tree that led back to a "minke Eve" alive around one million years ago.

"The size and depth of that gene tree tells you a lot about past population size, and the shape of that gene tree tells you a lot about past population size changes," he told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).

They are not weeds that need to be pulled

Steve Palumbi, Stanford University
"The results show that Antarctic minke whales have the greatest genetic diversity of any whale population we have ever sampled."

The information could prove critical to current discussions of the International Whaling Commission (IWC).

The Institute of Cetacean Research in Japan has proposed that minke whales used to be rare and have only become abundant in recent times. They estimate that numbers have increased from around 100,000 to approximately 800,000 just in the last hundred years.

This, they claim, is hindering the recovery of other Antarctic whale species - pointing to the need for resumed whaling.

But the genetic results tell a different story, showing a rapid population expansion and steady growth with no appreciable booms and busts.

"There is really no evidence at all that minke whales right now are so abundant that they are hindering the recovery of great whales in Antarctica," said Dr Palumbi.

"Minkes were not rare before the age of Antarctic whaling and their present population size is not a reflection of a recent, huge increase. They are not weeds that need to be pulled."

The findings also reveal that minke whales are extraordinarily resilient to climate change.

Their population sizes have not been noticeably affected by large climatic fluctuations over the past million years; though researchers are at a loss to explain why.
 
Here's a link to some footage released by the Kiwi's. Again, I applaud New Zealand and Australia for their direct involvement in an condemning an activity which is no longer viable and conducted under the guise of research. The overall question is not really about cruelty, but about hunting endangered, stressed populations for a almost non-existent market in Asia. That's wasteful, cruel and unethical.

While I abhor Icelandic and Norwegian whaling, their overall take is (at present) statistically insignificant. The Japanese fleet intends to take endangered species in addition to the Minke population. Research, my as#.

http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NewsDisplay/tabid/209/articleID/19558/Default.aspx

X
 
Mr.X:
Here's a link to some footage released by the Kiwi's. Again, I applaud New Zealand and Australia for their direct involvement in an condemning an activity which is no longer viable and conducted under the guise of research. The overall question is not really about cruelty, but about hunting endangered, stressed populations for a almost non-existent market in Asia. That's wasteful, cruel and unethical.

While I abhor Icelandic and Norwegian whaling, their overall take is (at present) statistically insignificant. The Japanese fleet intends to take endangered species in addition to the Minke population. Research, my as#.

http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NewsDisplay/tabid/209/articleID/19558/Default.aspx

X
Saying that "whales are endangered" because one species of whales are endangered is like saying that "quails are endangered because the california condors are".
As for a "non-existent market in Asia" i think you need to read up on which products comes from whales. Obviously there is meat (and no, thats not an "almost non-existent Asian market"), but whale parts is also used for other things, for example perfumes. Now perfumes sure is a "almost non-existent market"..
 
MOD POST

Dear NetDoc: Please don't make me read anti-whaling posts. You know how these threads go: Some interesting positions, interspersed with snippy comments, and followed up by heated accusations by folks who won't step away from the keyboard. Of course this results in deleted posts, edits, and PMs to The Perpetually Aggrieved.

Hey maybe people will play nice, and remember that there really are better things to do than to toss bombs and bait other members. Maybe I'll even win Lotto tonight. But if neither of those things happen, please don't make me follow this thread...

[Now back to fixing my dinner...]
 
Tigerman:
Saying that "whales are endangered" because one species of whales are endangered is like saying that "quails are endangered because the california condors are".
As for a "non-existent market in Asia" i think you need to read up on which products comes from whales. Obviously there is meat (and no, thats not an "almost non-existent Asian market"), but whale parts is also used for other things, for example perfumes. Now perfumes sure is a "almost non-existent market"..
*As for a "non-existent market in Asia"*



News services


The forces that drive Japanese whaling

Japan says that hunting whales is its sovereign right
As the International Whaling Commission holds its annual meeting, the BBC's Chris Hogg in Tokyo says that for Japan, the whaling debate is more about culture than science.
Japan's government says its whaling fleet culled 863 whales last winter. The justification was science.

Japan says it needs to collect data about whales - what are they eating? How old are they?

Its government says it needs to kill the whales in order to examine them closely and ensure the data is accurate.

Masayuki Komatsu is the executive director of the government-funded Marine Fisheries Research and Development Department.

Like many supporters of whaling he gives two main reasons for the cull.

"Whale is abundant," he says. "The number of fish is falling while the number of whales is rising. Surely the rapid increase in the whale population influences the level of the fish stocks? We need to know more about it."

Secondly he cites culture and tradition. "Whaling has been conducted in Japan for more than 400 years to provide whale meat on a sustainable basis," he says.

"The Japanese people, not just in whaling towns but in Tokyo and Osaka where many consumers are based, really appreciate whale meat as part of the riches from the oceans."

Vocal minority

Jeff Kingston, an academic who has studied the industry, is not so sure that is the case.
This is "invented tradition",
he believes. The support for whaling, he says, is rooted in more nationalistic traditions.

There is a consensus in Japan that as part of the natural right for a sovereign nation it is perfectly right to continue whaling

Tomohiko Taniguchi,
Ministry of Foreign Affairs
"This has become a touchstone issue for Japanese people who are sick and tired of being pushed around and told what to do by other countries like the United States," he argues.

"If the media and a few leaders tell them that whaling and eating whale meat is part of Japanese tradition and culture, people are willing to believe it."

Privately some senior officials in government admit that whaling policy has been hijacked by a small but vocal minority.

But such is the sensitivity surrounding this emotive issue they will not comment publicly. They set out the problem like this, though.

No politician would suggest a change of policy on whaling. It would be too unpopular. The whaling industry, of course, has no interest in changing its ways.

The public unless stirred remain pretty ambivalent about the issue, not strong supporters of whaling exactly but accepting of the status quo.

That leaves a small vocal minority who keep up the pressure on policy-makers and on public opinion to ensure that the policy is upheld.

'Natural right'

At Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Deputy Press Secretary Tomohiko Taniguchi insists that official support for the whaling industry is based on more than simply pacifying a small group of activists.


The Japanese government says people want to eat whale meat
"There is a right cause to be protected and the Japanese government is sticking to that right cause," he says.

"There is a consensus in Japan that as part of the natural right for a sovereign nation it is perfectly right to continue whaling."

But the reality is that when it comes to whaling, both domestically and internationally
the arguments tend to be dominated by culture rather than science.

"Whether or not [those defending whaling] are nationalists, this is a no-lose issue domestically," Jeff Kingston argues.

"They try to frame this in terms of culinary imperialism, saying, 'The West is trying to tell us what to eat. We don't tell them not to eat pigs or lambs that we find cute, so why should they tell us not to eat whales?'

"Emotions run high on this issue," he adds. "There is a heavy amount of 'emotionalism' that is couched in nationalist rhetoric."

Impact abroad

The risk for Japan's Foreign Ministry is that however well this might play for the government domestically, it does not play well with many of its allies abroad.

Other nations including the United Kingdom have made official protests in recent weeks about Japan's policy of continuing whaling.

Mr Taniguchi, while acknowledging that this is an important issue, tries to downplay its significance in terms of Japan's relations with its allies.

"This is not an industry that dictates the national interest," he insists. "The whaling industry provides far less income than companies like Toyota or Nissan. So you have to put everything into perspective."

The Japanese insist their ambition is simply to reform the International Whaling Commission to turn it from a battle-ground into a talking shop, where proper measures to conserve stocks can be agreed.

Others, though, fear they are doing all they can to turn it into a pro-whaling body and that further down the line they are looking to overturn the ban on commercial whaling.
 
Wildcard:
Picture burning rubber soaked in rotten fish oil. Mmmmm
Keep in mind Japan is the country that left behind to starve 150,000 soldiers in the PIs because is was cheaper to train new ones than pick them up. Very humane.

What? I never heard that. is that true?

I'm with Tony Blair on this one. In fact, I have never heard him make a position I did not agree with. Wish he would move over here, where he can be more fully appreciated.
 
MB:
MOD POST

Dear NetDoc: Please don't make me read anti-whaling posts. You know how these threads go: Some interesting positions, interspersed with snippy comments, and followed up by heated accusations by folks who won't step away from the keyboard. Of course this results in deleted posts, edits, and PMs to The Perpetually Aggrieved.

Hey maybe people will play nice, and remember that there really are better things to do than to toss bombs and bait other members. Maybe I'll even win Lotto tonight. But if neither of those things happen, please don't make me follow this thread...

[Now back to fixing my dinner...]


WHO's twisting your arm to read these posts? Let me know and I'll send a couple of guys to harpoon them
 
Tigerman:
Saying that "whales are endangered" because one species of whales are endangered is like saying that "quails are endangered because the california condors are".
As for a "non-existent market in Asia" i think you need to read up on which products comes from whales. Obviously there is meat (and no, thats not an "almost non-existent Asian market"), but whale parts is also used for other things, for example perfumes. Now perfumes sure is a "almost non-existent market"..


I hope you have read the posts by C Diver. I've been at this anti-whaling stuff for a while. Do your research before you pound away on your keyboard with gibberish.


Here's a question - Is talking about whales without getting heated once in a while an Inconvenient Truth? If anything, whales are a large canary in a coalmine. My intent on this thread is to stay informative. However, a few may feel it's their sovereign right to state and hammer away on peripheral matters.

X
 

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