Another Tables vs. Computers Thread

[minnesota01r6]

There is no such thing as an "underserved hit".

I have video proof that there is such a thing as an undeserved hit:

http://www.videovat.com/videos/300/shovel-head.aspx

one of my all-time favorite videos.

 

[tedtim]

I have video proof that there is such a thing as an undeserved hit:

http://www.videovat.com/videos/300/shovel-head.aspx

one of my all-time favorite videos.

:lol: The guy must have heard his alarm and was too busy looking at his computer to see the signs a hit was coming.

 

[limeyx]

No remedial training needed. But you might find it an interesting exercise to set the computer to the correct gas for your dive, and then run it as a computer while you dive whatever profile you would normally dive.

If you are diving a safe profile, the computer should be happy with that profile.

IMO there are two downsides to using a computer in the computer mode for recreational diving
1. Some divers will be lazy and rely solely upon the computer. This should not be a problem for you.
2. When displaying NDL and deco info, some computers show the depth and time in smaller numbers. Additionally, some people may be confused by the one extra number on the display.

For me, these relatively minor drawbacks are small in comparison to the benefit of having a redundant tracking of deco status to check what I'm roughly tracking mentally.

The computer honestly gives me no benefit with the exception of allowing me to view my profile after the dive.

I can plan and execute a dive from 30 feet on air to 160 on trimix without needing one. Why would I bother?

Does that mean everyone should have a computer-burning festival? Obviously not. I'm not a dive professional and probably never will be. Does this mean I will get bent? Maybe. But so might I if I used a computer.

I happen to have a different idea of how to profile a dive than probably most computers (maybe all?) and I want to be able to change things around based on how I feel, how the ocean conditions are, all kinds of things and I might not agree with a computer in those cases. Admittedly this makes more difference on a dive that involves mandatory decompression.

I firmly believe (as Mike F has been saying) that there are patterns to all of this, and if you start to see those patterns and work with them, you make things easier not harder.

Also, my buddies are my backup deco schedule -- they are trained to be able to take over if i screw up. Since we all dive the same profile, this is easy.

 

[limeyx]

OTOH, since it is all a pretty rough approximation anyway, it is feasible to keep reasonable track of average depth and deco status in your head.

My issue with relying solely upon mental tracking is not whether it can be precise enough, or whether it is as accurate as a computer. My issue is that I am sometimes forgetful, sometimes distracted, and sometimes screw up badly in mental calculation. I prefer to keep rough track in my head, and compare that to what my computer says.

I agree this can be a concern (wow, we agree
but that's why you train that way right from the beginning, so it's second nature.
I do this on open water rec dives so that when I move to deco diving, the same principle (just with some extensions) still applies.

For the deco case, the ascent profile I follow is actually a combination of different "deco theories" combinbed with some massaging of the numbers (admittedly somewhat heuristic). I dont think a computer is going to know anything about those issues.

and yes, I could well carry a computer with me, and as long as I remembered to set it to the mix i was diving every single time, I have no doubts it would be happy with all my rec profiles -- the numbers I use are actually pretty conservative.

 

[Soggy]

The notion that a human with a simple table is going to be more precise in calculating nitrogen load is, frankly, laughable.

...yet we have cave divers in Florida spending 6+ hours in the 300 ffw range able to manage the decompression without computers.

Now, I'm not suggesting that many of us are ready to do that kind of dive, but surely most of us are capable of calculating average depth over the course of a typical recreational dive (30-60 minutes). I know when I come up and ask myself what my average depth was, I am normally within a few feet of what my gauge tells me in the log.

 

[Soggy]

As far as I can tell, no one has criticized the *addition* of computer diving in the educational process. I think it's a great idea. Teach them what the computer can and cannot do, how to read it, not to ride the 0, etc.

The truly sad part? More people get bent ON computers than on tables. You would think that ANY curricula should cover how to USE these tools competently. Unfortunately, they are villified in the agencies by many who villify them here (or for the same lame-o reasons) and so students never learn the BASICS of computer diving. By denying them the education in the tools they will be using we are setting them up for failure.

But then, I am sure someone will tell them to "just read the manual". This only covers how to operate the device: not how to dive it!

 

[Charlie99]

I happen to have a different idea of how to profile a dive than probably most computers (maybe all?) and I want to be able to change things around based on how I feel, how the ocean conditions are, all kinds of things and I might not agree with a computer in those cases. Admittedly this makes more difference on a dive that involves mandatory decompression.

What I keep getting stuck on is statement like "I happen to have a different idea of how to profile a dive than probably most computers". It would help a lot if you would explain a bit more by what you mean by this.

I'm not trying to argue and harass you. Many other have made similar sort of statements, but I've never understood what is meant. From my point of view, COMPUTERS DON'T PROFILE A DIVE. They don't restrict you to any specific profile. They are simple numerical accounting devices that estimate N2 loading based upon the time and depth of the profile YOU HAVE CHOSEN.

That's why I'm suggesting that you try the experiment of leaving your computer set to the right gas, normal level of conservatism and go do your dive as you normally would. Even if you do go into decompression a bit, by the time you have surfaced it should be cleared. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, your computer will be happy to be taken along for the ride.

-----------------

Put in simpler terms, I think that many divers falsely assume that the choice is EITHER control their profile with manual tracking OR blindly follow a computer. OTOH, I believe is using my brain to set the overall profile, while letting the computer do the detailed accounting.

 

[The Chairman]

...yet we have cave divers in Florida spending 6+ hours in the 300 ffw range able to manage the decompression without computers.

That's not entirely true, now is it? Don't they rely on Deco Planner and what not BEFORE the dive? It still smacks of a lot of ego to me: you don't but you do type thing.

 

[The Chairman]

Actually, the guy had just posted some inane crap on :sblogo: just prior to this!

I have video proof that there is such a thing as an undeserved hit:

http://www.videovat.com/videos/300/shovel-head.aspx

one of my all-time favorite videos.

 

[limeyx]

What I keep getting stuck on is statement like "I happen to have a different idea of how to profile a dive than probably most computers". It would help a lot if you would explain a bit more by what you mean by this.

I'm not trying to argue and harass you. Many other have made similar sort of statements, but I've never understood what is meant. From my point of view, COMPUTERS DON'T PROFILE A DIVE. They don't restrict you to any specific profile. They are simple numerical accounting devices that estimate N2 loading based upon the time and depth of the profile YOU HAVE CHOSEN.

That's why I'm suggesting that you try the experiment of leaving your computer set to the right gas, normal level of conservatism and go do your dive as you normally would. Even if you do go into decompression a bit, by the time you have surfaced it should be cleared. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, your computer will be happy to be taken along for the ride.

-----------------

Put in simpler terms, I think that many divers falsely assume that the choice is EITHER control their profile with manual tracking OR blindly follow a computer. OTOH, I believe is using my brain to set the overall profile, while letting the computer do the detailed accounting.

Let's do it via email or PM. I am happy to give out some info, but I am not going to post it here because I do not want to be responsible for someone getting injured.
The profiles I use are a subset/special case of a more general technique used by GUE/WKPP divers (I guess this is the closest) and I really dont want to discuss it on a public board.

It is entirely possible that for any dive beyond rec dives that I do, the computer will go crazy, who knows. Even if it was "clear" i am not going to follow it's ascent profile anway, so I may as well have it in my head. Make sense?