Another Tables vs. Computers Thread

[DivesWithTurtles]

That's alright, we saw it, anyhow...

I was wrong. I apologize.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not to answer for him. But I think he meant that these divers, after or during class, used a computer during the dive and relied on it for excution and possibly in the absence of planning. Funny thing is, I'll bet their computer instruction was limited to - go read the manual.

Checking my old (probably a little outdated) PADI instructor manual and a PADI OW manual published in 1999. There are sections in moduals 4 and 5 concerning diving with computers. The material is somewhat general and there isn't any make, model or feature specific information but the basics are there. Students aren't require to have a computer for the class so there isn't any guarantee that they'll dive with one in the class.

In addition there is a multilevel/computer modual in the AOW text and a multilevel & computer dive is an option...which seems appropriate since not all students at that level have computers.

So...any PADI certified divers going back some number of years (I don't know when the material was first added) has at least been exposed to the basics of computer diving in addition to being required to learn to use tables.

I'm sure that we could debate whether or not we think the information provided is to our liking but the fact is that the students computer instructio is not limited to "go read the manual" as you suggest.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm sure that we could debate whether or not we think the information provided is to our liking but the fact is that the students computer instructio is not limited to "go read the manual" as you suggest.

Please... the information is not presented in most of the classes and the EMPHASIS is on learning the tables. To indicate otherwise is disengenuous, and possibly intellectually dishonest.

Few OW divers know how to use their computers. They might know how to turn them on and jump in the water: but just ask them to plan a dive on their dive computer. It's not happening.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Please... the information is not presented in most of the classes and the EMPHASIS is on learning the tables. To indicate otherwise is disengenuous, and possibly intellectually dishonest.

I don't know how you can say that the information isn't presented in "most" classes. The OW manual is required reading in a PADI course. That means that it's "presented" in all classes. There isn't anything dishonest about that statement as it can be verified by a review of the PADI OW training standards and the manual which, as I say, I have right in front of me. How the instructor addresses the material in lecture or in the water is another matter and all bets are off since they usually don't even teach students to dive.

Few OW divers know how to use their computers. They might know how to turn them on and jump in the water: but just ask them to plan a dive on their dive computer. It's not happening.

What would prevent a diver from knowing how to plan a dive with their computer if they know how to plan a dive at all?

Are you saying that a diver needs an instructor to walk them though using the planning or simulation mode of their computer? Maybe some people need that or would like it. In my experience, though, knowing how to plan a dive with tables and reading the manual for a specific computer works just fine. I don't usually dive with a computer now but I started out using one. I even started my technical dive training and diving using computers including multigas computers and I don't remember needing any help with computer specific aspects of planning. Knowing how to plan a dive with tables and knowing basic decompression theory left me perfectly capable of applying any specific computer that I chose by putting together what I knew of dive planning with what was in the computer manual.

Are you seeing divers who can't plan with a computer or are you seeing divers who just don't want to plan a dive at all? Some former students of mine use VR3's...a ten gas computer?...and they seem to be able to plan a dive on them though I didn't take them by the hand and tech them how. I did teach them dive planning in OW, AOW, rescue, DM, Advanced nitrox and assisted in their normoxic trimix class but I never sat down with them and their new computers. Learning how to plan a dive with tables left them more than capable of applying a computer.

As far as I'm concerned, if you kow how to plan a dive using tables you can read a computer manual and use it without any further help from an instructor and you have the choice to use whichever you want. What's the big deal?

 

[MikeFerrara]

ooops, I missed a point. Yes the emphisis is on using tables. I'd say that it's because some people and agencies feel that using tables is more likely to require the help of an instructor and that tables should still be included. I think make for a more well rounded diver with more choices available to them. Lets face it. Tables are easier to get. They come with the OW materials of some agncies, they are printed right in some texts and you can probably download them off the internet for free...cheap, easy and available to just about every one. In many situations they are even quit usefull.

 

[The Chairman]

While the manual is "required" or not... we are talking about the CLASS. NO TIME is spent on computers while there is an INORDINATE amount of time spent on tables. Is the time spent on the tables beneficial to understanding nitrogen loading and unloading? Probably not: they are just trying to get them adequately trained to pass the test. How many instructors have computers as part of their student gear?

But you are contending that the emphasis is on diving with a computer and not using a watch, depth gauge and tables? No in most classes, computers are a wistful show and tell item and nothing more.

 

[lamont]

Hmnnnn, I would disagree with this. You are saying that their OW class did NOT teach tables? Do you have any evidence for this?

I was thinking more of the first 50-100+ dives that they do, not just classroom learning...

 

[MikeFerrara]

While the manual is "required" or not... we are talking about the CLASS.

The class includes the printed material but I guess you're talking about lecture? I don't know if you've noticed but the trend is to get away from lecture and rely more on home study.

NO TIME is spent on computers while there is an INORDINATE amount of time spent on tables.

I don't see how you can say that no time is spent on computers. Since that section is included in the instructor outline, it's clearly intended that the instructor include at least some lecture time on it...if there's lecture time at all. You calling the time spent on table "inordinate" is clearly your opinion and one that I don't share. Typically divers need more supervised practice with tables than with a computer, in my experience. Since I am against iliminating tables from training, I think it's necessary to spend more time on tables than on computers.

Is the time spent on the tables beneficial to understanding nitrogen loading and unloading? Probably not:

I believe it is since calculating nitrogen loading and residual nitrogen time is exactly what they learn to do with tables. [/QUOTE] they are just trying to get them adequately trained to pass the test. [/QUOTE]

Passing the test is a good thing, isn't it?

How many instructors have computers as part of their student gear?

I don't know how many. Do you know how many? Aside from that, since standards required the learning of tables and they were supplied with student materials thats what we used and they worked wonderfully. I was prepared to instruct a student who purchased or rented one though. LOL

But you are contending that the emphasis is on diving with a computer and not using a watch, depth gauge and tables?

Absolutely not since my last post makes it clear that the emphisis is on using tables...as it should be, in my opinion.

No in most classes, computers are a wistful show and tell item and nothing more.

I don't know about most classes but Is more really required? Computers are pretty simple to use, after all. I have yet to see ANY diver who knows how to plan a dive with tables that is unable to plan one using a computer. There may be one someplace but I haven't seen any. Unwilling maybe but not unable.

What makes you think that any one who knows how to plan a dive with tables needs an instructor so shoe them how to use the planning or simulation mode of a computer?

 

[The Chairman]

And so the ignorance is perpetuated. Why blame the tool if you really teach no one how to use it? There are many things that a computer can do for the diver that makes it easier. It's pretty hard to forget the safety stop, since it's being counted down for you. Ascent is constantly monitored... but they don't know that if they are not taught. Here is a tool that can HELP divers do better, but it's easier to blame it than to use it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And so the ignorance is perpetuated.

Yes but the debate seems centered arounf just who it is that's ignorant.

Why blame the tool if you really teach no one how to use it?

I don't blame the tool. I said, that I didn't think that any one who knows how to plan a dive should have trouble using a computer to plan one. I know that I never did and niether did the MANY divers that I've taught and dived with. I just haven't see the problem that you seem to think exists.

There are many things that a computer can do for the diver that makes it easier.

Easier? How much easier does it need to be?

It's pretty hard to forget the safety stop, since it's being counted down for you.

I wouldn't take a diver in the water who needed a computer to remind them that a safety stop might be appropriate.

Ascent is constantly monitored... but they don't know that if they are not taught.

Yes they do. That fact is adequately explained in the manual that comes with the computer and might even be advertised on the outside of the box that houses the computer in some cases.

Here is a tool that can HELP divers do better, but it's easier to blame it than to use it.

I would never blame the computer if a diver can't comtrol their ascent or remember to do a safety stop. You seem to blame the ones who aren't teaching divers to rely on a computer for that though. Is that like blaming the tool? In my experience, the easiest is to teach divers to do good ascents and descents and teach dive planning in a way that prepares them to use WHATEVER tools they desire. That's what worked for me and my students.

You say a computer helps divers do better but I have yet to see a demonstration of that. Do you think that if we rounded up a bunch of table divers and a bunch of computer divers that the computer divers would have better ascent control and do more safety stops? That sounds obsurd to me. If it were true, I find it scary because a diver shouldn't need a computer to control their ascent and they certainly shouldn't need one to get through a safety stop. In fact, wouldn't an ascent and a safety stop be a normal part of dive termination in the event of a computer failure? It seems clear to me that they NEED to be able to do both without the computer.