Another Holocaust National History Day

[Rick Murchison]

"Flags of Our Fathers" is pop-history, totally unreliable.

Bradley does have an advanced degree in Japanese studies; he does consider the "it's our fault for cutting off the oil" position BS. As do I. If you want to consider that "totally unreliable" have at it. You're flat wrong, but entitled to be so.

The Japanese plan for a possible attack on Pearl was not part of any deal made with Hitler. That's just plain silly.

I didn't say it was - you're right, that's just plain silly. Two different issues.

The Pearl contingency plan, one among many contingency plans, was devised by Japanese strategists long before Hitler came to power. A potential conflict between Japan and the US over control of Asia became clear to both nations shortly after WW1. Contingency planning in both countries for future conflict was well under way by 1925.

correct.

The question was whether total American control over Asia would replace European control, or would Japan be able to secure hegemony over areas of Asia vital to its survival as the only non-western manufacturing economy in the world? If it did extend control over parts of Asia, would the US try to destroy Japan economically and/or militarily? The various contingency plans followed. Most of these hypothetical scenarios assumed that the US would try to maintain absolute Western control over Asia at all costs. They were, of course, correct.

Now you're dreamin'. There was another option - a free market. But Japan wanted regional hegemony instead, and was willing to invade her neighbors to get it.

Nazi connections with Japan came very late in the game, long after Japan occupied Manchuria and launched its general war against China a few years later. Japanese plans and actions in Asia had virtually no connection with Hitler's plans for Europe and the Soviet Union. There was very little coordination and cooperation between Germany and Japan

Yeah, even the Nazi Advisors were appalled at the rape of Nanking. I suppose that's our fault too.
You dig into it - even if you do want to paint US motives as less than pure, there's just no way Japan comes out as a "victim" in its run up to its sneak attack on the US, and no way to make 'em look good.
Rick

 

[agilis]

I seem to have misunderstood the part after "au contraire...". But then, I did not characterize Japan as a victim. Like us, they were just looking out for Number One.

Free markets were not an option in a colonial system. When were the French going to extend free market economic competition to Indochina, or the Dutch to Indonesia? Free markets in Asia after WW1 were an anachronism, and blaming the Japanese for demanding hegemony in what was a region under militarily imposed totalitarian foreign rule is just dead wrong. You have, of course, every right to be dead wrong, a right you freely and frequently exercize.

If I painted US motives as being less than pure, I apologize. This was not my intention. US motives were never tainted by even the smallest element of that quality. Not then, not now, and not ever. Pure motives and the foreign policy of nation states are about as compatible as total honesty and winning an election.

And there were no "nazi advisors" at Nanking.

 

[Gilldiver]

We can get all tanked up with who did what or how or why or when. The 20th century will go down as one bloody killing. But most who study it closly agree that for a body count the three greates were Mao, Stalin, and Hitler (in that order by the way).

The why of WWII has been bashed about many times and will not be settled here. Hitler takes the top list of killers only because he industrialized it and targeted the Jews, and any other undesirables (slavs, gypsies, etc.). The others, Mao, Stalin, Japanise, Pol Pot, etc. just took the food away and shot them.

WWII happened, it was a war between great powers, we just need to keep a great power war from happing again.

 

[Rick Murchison]

And there were no "nazi advisors" at Nanking.

Ok... Even the Nazis who were there found it appalling.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

I seem to have misunderstood the part after "au contraire...". But then, I did not characterize Japan as a victim. Like us, they were just looking out for Number One.

In your initial post you said "That (referring to your first statement that the US cut off oil supplies) is why they attacked Pearl." That statement is the one I take issue with, because it is only a very small part of the big picture.

Free markets were not an option in a colonial system. When were the French going to extend free market economic competition to Indochina, or the Dutch to Indonesia? Free markets in Asia after WW1 were an anachronism, and blaming the Japanese for demanding hegemony in what was a region under militarily imposed totalitarian foreign rule is just dead wrong.

You're changing your premise. Your choices were "total American control" or "Japanese hegemony." You didn't allow for the French or the Dutch not relinquishing control. Given your choices, and the American tradition of promoting eventual independence, the free trade option is relevant.

You have, of course, every right to be dead wrong, a right you freely and frequently exercize.

Now that's relevant!

If I painted US motives as being less than pure, I apologize. This was not my intention. US motives were never tainted by even the smallest element of that quality. Not then, not now, and not ever. Pure motives and the foreign policy of nation states are about as compatible as total honesty and winning an election.

Oh, brother... I appreciate your sarcastic attempt to illuiminate that national motives are first and foremost to self interest; my point, of course, is that selfishness on the one hand does not excuse others from egregious conduct, and that referring to the motives of one party to detract from the sins of another is a red herring.
Rick

 

[DiverBeth]

The real problem IMO is the fact that all of these holocausts have taken place. In this country most people think of the Nazi's trying to exterminate Europe's Jewish population. I had family members perish in the concentration camps and a few who survived. But as pointed out above there have been many holocausts and genocides and it's still going on today! Just look at Darfur. And what about Rwanda and the Balkans?

All of these barbaric acts through the centuries should be taught in real history classes. Maybe someday people will finally learn. One can only hope.

 

[Hoosier]

Oh~~~C’mon.

This is about the fact that we didn’t know, not about the motivation and hegemony. We all know that there is no justice on any wars and international affairs, except a self interest. However, there should be a moral and common sense to keep as a human being. Anybody can be murdered even in the safe place like your home, but the way of murder is highly important to punish the criminal. Why? The same concept is applied for in any civilized society unless you are living in a barbarian community.

There are many criminal acts during the wars as we have seen and heard from any wars, even from the Gulf War, but this isn’t about one of the criminal acts during the combats or battle ground.

The fact shows that the human beings were used as the lab mice outside of battle ground. It wasn’t just wining a war or killing the human being. It is a breathless disgusting act that has been pre-planned.


So, just forget and wait for the new world. Mabye… but it is just about 70 years ago. The old generation who is a victim of Japanese brutalities is still alive at this moment.
Japan wants to be a leader of Asia and a permanent member of the UN Security Council. In addition, they are making a hero of the war criminals. I am wondering if you can justify your argument to Jewish community with the same logic.


Like Rick said, today is from yesterday and tomorrow is from today.