Another Eagles Nest fatality

[TotDoc]

On that note I was thinking: I know *of* the 'caustic cocktail' that @TotDoc suggested but not much about it. Could the fluid from the lungs (due to SIPE/IPE for example), if exhaled into the rebreather, create a caustic cocktail? Or would you need a full flood?

Caustic cocktail is kind of its own animal here. Although it doesn't take a massive amount of water to make SOME caustic mixture in the loop, it's not like a few drops of water are going to absolutely kill anyone. When people have pulmonary edema from things like SIP/IPE, there's typically not a ton of water pouring out of the lungs. The problem is that the fluid in the lungs prevents gas exchange, and since you need that to live, it's a very bad thing. Frankly, if he really had SIP/IPE, a caustic wouldn't matter much - he's not going to be even MORE dead from the caustic.

When people think of a caustic, they typically think about a lot of fluid being involved, and kind of an explosive event. Minor caustic fluid collections can happen, though, generally from a leak somewhere in the system. For example, I had a small leak in the counterlung of my rebreather when I bought it used. It would get a small amount of fluid in there, and when I went head down, I would get a small amount of alkali fluid in the mouthpiece. Not enough to do any damage, but certainly enough for me to get a bad taste and know it had happened.

My point for bringing this up is that even though that small amount of fluid is very manageable, it's still potentially damaging if you aspirate it into your airway. Alkali fluids can cause local tissue damage, and can trigger laryngospasm that can block the upper airway. As it turns out, even clean water can do the same thing for some folks - but it can be worse if the material aspirated is caustic. Since it was said that it sounded like he was choking, this came to mind for me.

Have you ever taken a drink of something and had it go down the wrong pipe? Yeah - that's laryngospasm. It can range from mild to severe, and can be life threatening. In fact, continued struggle to breathe against a closed upper airway can even lead to edema in the lower airway. Not fun! Just not necessarily what happened here, either.

I've heard of the 'chokes' before but not in too much detail. Is there any easy to read (I mean, I don't need a picture-book but I'm hoping not to have to read through scientific studies) that you could recommend to learn more about it?

Pulmonary DCS (Chokes) Here's a basic description in only a few paragraphs. If he had a controlled ascent, it seems unlikely this was his problem.

 

[Freewillow]

Also, I'll add in the case of Mr. Odom. We have no idea how much time he spent on his unit. Hell at his age and with a possible good fortune and being the boss, he could have cut out of the office every day and dived. We simply don't know. All speculation.

As a retired CEO, I think the idea very creative.............but quite unrealistic ......................Just pulling your leg

 

[tbone1004]

So we're moving on from shop blaming to agency blaming for a likely medical incident?

My dive history may not be polished but there's some pretty prominent members among the sport on the board of IANTD. Many who contribute here.

IANTD Board

no one on that list is a regular contributor to this forum btw. Of more important note, those are boards of advisors, not the board of directors. They have no power to do anything to an instructor.
IANTD Staff
these are the people that can actually do stuff

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

I don't suppose there's any evidence implicating blood thinners and/or history of high BP?

Hi, just wading through the thread and saw this.

Blood thinners, no, to my knowledge there's no physiologic basis for this. Hypertension, possibly, as part of the overall cardiovascular health picture.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

I've heard of the 'chokes' before but not in too much detail. Is there any easy to read (I mean, I don't need a picture-book but I'm hoping not to have to read through scientific studies) that you could recommend to learn more about it?

Chokes is another term for pulmonary decompression sickness. Most divers have detectable venous gas emboli (VGE, or bubbles in the veins) after a dive. The blood from the veins is pumped to the lungs by the right side of the heart. Typically the VGE in divers are trapped in the capillaries of the lungs and gradually eliminated without ill effect. If the decompression process goes awry for some reason, VGE could become numerous and/or large enough to obstruct blood flow through the lungs and damage the pulmonary capillaries. If that happens, blood can't flow through the lungs and so the individual can't take on oxygen or eliminate CO2. It can be rapidly fatal and so should be treated aggressively. In the field, support oxygenation and circulation. In the hospital, immediate recompression in a hyperbaric chamber. <edit> in a hyperbaric chamber staffed and equipped to care for a critically ill patient. -DDM

Chokes after normal decompression is extremely rare. Usually it happens after omitted decompression. I suppose it could happen in the water but the picture would probably be one of a rapid ascent from an extreme depth with a significant amount of decompression omitted on the way up. Hope this helps!

Best regards,
DDM

 

[cerich]

There was a post on another forum by another diver that has first hand experience with the "culture" of EZ Scuba in Tampa..

I got permission to share it here


"I have a bone to pick with what happened here in this tragic case.

Let me just start off by saying, I have crossed paths with the deceased and my condolences to his family. It is always a sad day when one of our fellow Speleo lovers passes.
Now there's a ton that needs to be brought to light. I was a long time student of the shop that this gentleman went to, I spent lots of days and nights here with the people that work there, the customers, being immersed in that light. Just a little back story of my training, I took OW -> AOW -> Deep/Explorer (did deep training while training on the explorer) -> Cavern -> ART -> Rescue -> EFR -> Prism -> DM through this shop. I have since ceased attending that facility due to the false sense of security when diving. I did most of my training at EN, and thought it was a nice place to "just do a cavern dive" as many in the past have stated. I constantly see a common argument on whether or not EN is a place to train for cave / deep / alt gas, etc. I will firmly stand my ground (as being taught most of my time there) that this site is not something for new and quite frankly experienced divers as well. I've seen some of you up at cave country... This guy should have never been brought to Eagles nest in the first place, whether or not it was a medical accident or equipment related. My reasoning is, is that this guy was rough on his gear. He went 0 to hero. There is literally no reason a diver who has been in the water for less than a year has a expedition grade gear. The fundamentals of diving has not been established. From first hand experience I can say that the gear was not properly set up; tanks hanging low, being vertical most of the dive, etc. The type of student that was produced was that of greed and not of the well being of the student. I, personally, was taught at eagles nest from the same shop the deceased was taught at. I have been apart of classes where cavern on the explorer was taught at eagles nest without anything more than PADI deep training (130'). The shop does not condone good health as in eating habits, exercise, etc, and the gear sold was way to advance for the level of student he was. Just as a little chuckle for you all, I literally had to retake sidemount and cavern before starting intro with the shop I attend now. There is literally no reason this guy, as well as dozens of others should have been brought 11 miles back into the woods to dive at this site, especially with the quality of training previously provided._Taylor P"

 

[KDAD]

I have to agree on the experience level or should I say the lack of it. Zero to hero and all. I am still a newish diver with about the same amount of experience time wise and would not consider the level of diving and equipment that he had, unless of course I had more money than sense which I fortunately I don't. Had I the time and money, well...

How many dives could he have realistiically have made over 18 months to be qualified? He did work so it couldn't be all diving all the time. At his level of certification how many were training dives? Just seems to much too soon.

 

[Bob DBF]

You know, there has to be some personal responsibility and self reflection as a diver. Why am I diving? Should I do this dive? Am I qualified? Do I have the mindset? Am I fit and/or young enough to handle the stress a deep rebreather dive will put on my body?

You forgot the most important, Am I blowing smoke up my own a**.

What should be done to correct the issue of agencies churning out instructors and students who aren't qualified?

Until there is some reason to change, brought from outside the agencies, I would expect more of the same.

The students generally don't know that they suck. I have seen it time and again. You can try and talk to most of them but they generally believe they got good instruction even when they suck.

This may be a societal problem, raise people by giving praise and reward regardless of their poor performance, they become entitled and are a better judge of their own skill than anyone. Add to that an instructor that plays on that weakness and you might as well save your breath. One reason I solo a lot.



Bob
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The Ocean isn't out to get you, it just doesn't care.

 

[Freewillow]

sounds a bit like Dr deep story , no ?

 

[Diver987]

i'm sad and i hope he rests in peace condolences to his family...