Another 109 thread, but with a twist.

[parzdiver]

Quick question - As I said, I have a slight leak on the regulator which stops when fully closed. How much could this be due to needs to "set" the new seat? Should I be cycling this reg many times (how many is many) to make sure the seats are properly mated?

Thanks.

 

[Zung]

Assuming that you started the reassembly right (orifice all the way in, then back out 2 turns, then the poppet, spring and adjustment knob, pressurize, turn the orifice c/w untill the leak stops).

I would swap the orifice. It's the only case I've had where the leak wouldn't stop. Another (unlikely) cause would be the poppet got stuck somewhere inside and requires a cleaning of the barrel. Or, even more unlikely, an old style poppet with a non replaceable seat that's been messed with.

 

[parzdiver]

Thanks Zung. I might have to review the exact process with which I put it together, I don't doubt it could be a user assembly problem. It is a new poppet, new seat and new o rings. I'll also double check the barrel to make sure there is nothing inside.

 

[Zung]

... It's the only case I've had where the leak wouldn't stop...

Untrue!
I had another case where there the lever and or the diaphragm were sticking a little bit because of some crud. Easy enough to find out: remove both the cover and the diaphragm: if it stops, this is it.

 

[redacted]

I had to tune my first 109 before I had any "official" procedure, so I developed my own procedure and still use it today. I leave to orifice very loose, tightening it about 2 turns and I leave the diaphragm and covers off. Initially, I alternate adjusting the orifice inward about 1 to 1/2 turn at a time and blow into the reg to listen for a change in the sound. I depress the lever when I turn the orifice. Once I get it to where I can't blow, I ad the LP hose and put it on a tank. It will again leak. Now I adjust 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time again listening for a change in the sound (lever pressed when adjusting). It is slow because I have to turn the air off and remove the hose for each adjustment - think of it as regulator foreplay. When the sound tells me I'm getting close, take it down to 1/8 to 1/12 turn at a time until it seats. Now inspect the lever height. If it is sitting way above the edge of the body, you may be looking for a new lever. Install the diaphragm and covers and it should leak a bit again. If the lever is good, it should take no more than 1 turn to stop it (1/4 to 1/12 at a time depending on the sound). When the last turn stops the leak, I loosen it 1/12 turn and make sure it starts leaking again. Sometimes I leave it with that slight leak and correct it with the adjustment knob if I really want top performance. Otherwise I tighten it 1/12 turn and head to the sink (I like the sink better than my magnehelic gauge). With 2nds that are not user adjustable, it may be prudent to take another 1/12 turn adjustment to prevent future leaks after the seat takes a set but I don't see the sense if you DIY with a user adjustable 2nd. Finally, playing with it as you admire and test your work also does a little break-in. I usually do the 1st stage first and break that HP seat in with another 2nd stage before I do a 2nd stage so I am working with a stable IP.


When you DIY, there is no reason to be in such a hurry that you trade quality for time or money.

 

[Couv]

So if the Master calls his method "Regulator Foreplay" what's the Couv method called? Oral something or another I guess.

..... After you have the reg assembled with the orifice out a couple of turns you can now use "Couv's-mouth-vacuum method." -leave the hose off. Adjust the orifice in until you see a very slight drop in lever height. Now, with your mouth create a vacuum on the inlet barrel. If you can't draw a vacuum, adjust the orifice in a little at a time until you can create a vacuum. Once you've found the spot where you can make or break the vacuum with a very slight turn attach the hose. Chances are when you first pressurize you'll get a free flow-but it will only take a very small turn clockwise to stop it. .....make sure the lever is depressed EVERY TIME you make an orifice adjustment...

Sex ed in High School: I failed the written and passed the oral.

 

[redacted]

So, once again it comes down to the old suck vs blow controversy.

I apologize, and me with the starvin' Pygmies down there in New Guinea.

Who ordered pizza?

 

[Paladin]

I had to tune my first 109 before I had any "official" procedure, so I developed my own procedure and still use it today. I leave to orifice very loose, tightening it about 2 turns and I leave the diaphragm and covers off. Initially, I alternate adjusting the orifice inward about 1 to 1/2 turn at a time and blow into the reg to listen for a change in the sound. I depress the lever when I turn the orifice. Once I get it to where I can't blow, I ad the LP hose and put it on a tank. It will again leak. Now I adjust 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time again listening for a change in the sound (lever pressed when adjusting). It is slow because I have to turn the air off and remove the hose for each adjustment - think of it as regulator foreplay. When the sound tells me I'm getting close, take it down to 1/8 to 1/12 turn at a time until it seats. Now inspect the lever height. If it is sitting way above the edge of the body, you may be looking for a new lever. Install the diaphragm and covers and it should leak a bit again. If the lever is good, it should take no more than 1 turn to stop it (1/4 to 1/12 at a time depending on the sound). When the last turn stops the leak, I loosen it 1/12 turn and make sure it starts leaking again. Sometimes I leave it with that slight leak and correct it with the adjustment knob if I really want top performance. Otherwise I tighten it 1/12 turn and head to the sink (I like the sink better than my magnehelic gauge). With 2nds that are not user adjustable, it may be prudent to take another 1/12 turn adjustment to prevent future leaks after the seat takes a set but I don't see the sense if you DIY with a user adjustable 2nd. Finally, playing with it as you admire and test your work also does a little break-in. I usually do the 1st stage first and break that HP seat in with another 2nd stage before I do a 2nd stage so I am working with a stable IP.


When you DIY, there is no reason to be in such a hurry that you trade quality for time or money.

That's how I did mine.

 

[halocline]

Quick question - As I said, I have a slight leak on the regulator which stops when fully closed. How much could this be due to needs to "set" the new seat? Should I be cycling this reg many times (how many is many) to make sure the seats are properly mated?

Thanks.

You shouldn't have to cycle it at all, really. If you set it very light, it could start flowing slightly with the adjustment knob all the way out after a dive or two, but a quick turn of the adjustment knob should stop it.

In your case, from what I can gather from your posts, you just need to adjust the orifice in a little more. While awap's method is, I'm sure, a lovely way for man and regulator to have some quality time, I just hold the lever down and screw in the orifice until the lever doesn't come all the back up when released. Then I know I'm pretty close and start pushing some air through it.

Once you get it to stop flowing with the diaphragm off, you can put the diaphragm, cover, and just press the front metal in place, then see if it flows, usually you have to adjust the orifice in another 1/8 turn or so, assuming the lever is ok.

It would be a good idea to really check the orifice edge with a magnifying glass if you did not do so. Every once in a while there's either a burr or a bit of chrome worn off that causes problems.

I personally have found that the s-wing poppet (balanced) and lighter spring are easier to get adjusted and tend to hold a tune better, but the duro poppet works fine. If you're having inconsistency problems with the reg holding a tune after a few dives, you could try replacing the spring. I've seen some pretty ugly looking ones, and it stands to reason that they might lose some resiliency over time.

 

[redacted]

While awap's method is, I'm sure, a lovely way for man and regulator to have some quality time, .

For valentine's day, I think I will try to service my wife's Pilot. It is quite old and can be difficult. The exhaust valve and diaphragm are all in one and it can be hard to get it in right.:blinking: