Lost Yooper
Guest
Most divers wouldn't know perfect trim if they saw it, much less "master" it. There's a huge difference between *PADI trim* and proper trim.
Mike
Mike
Ankle Weights!!!
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There are simply times when ankle weights are the best option. Here's a specific: I have a set of the "new style" 95's (suckers weigh 113 pounds full). Bands are as high as they can go without being above the shoulder; mounting them in the lower bolt holes on the BP and stationing the BP as low as is comfy, wearing an O'Neill 7m drysuit, with wing as far forward as it will go, from a horizontal position with neutral buoyancy I will tumble forward...
Sure, I can junk the 95's and get some longer tanks. Sure, I can buy a new drysuit. But given that I'm not rolling in cash, I'll opt for a little trim weight. Well, I'm already plenty negative without any additional weight, so I'd like to add as little weight as possible. I can add eight pounds as low on the tanks as it'll go, or I can add three pounds in ankle weights.
I choose the ankle weights.
And I'll be horizontal.
And no, a video won't show my knees drooping - I don't need a stinking video, I have silty bottom - and when it gets tight enough to be touching ceiling and floor, it's my sleek gut that touches.
Sure, I'd rather have new tanks and a 905... but until the money fairy does her thing, I'll stick with the ankle weights.
Rick
Sure, I can junk the 95's and get some longer tanks. Sure, I can buy a new drysuit. But given that I'm not rolling in cash, I'll opt for a little trim weight. Well, I'm already plenty negative without any additional weight, so I'd like to add as little weight as possible. I can add eight pounds as low on the tanks as it'll go, or I can add three pounds in ankle weights.
I choose the ankle weights.
And I'll be horizontal.
And no, a video won't show my knees drooping - I don't need a stinking video, I have silty bottom - and when it gets tight enough to be touching ceiling and floor, it's my sleek gut that touches.
Sure, I'd rather have new tanks and a 905... but until the money fairy does her thing, I'll stick with the ankle weights.
Rick
sheck33
Contributor
it is your right to dislike DIR but do you dislike the philosophy itself or do you dislike some of the bad apples in the DIR community? I am asking because that is what i come across the most, because some arrogant 'DIR' diver told them they were 'strokes' they dislike DIR which is twisted and a shame.
But it is true that ankle weights are not needed in about 98% of the cases just as it is true that proper trim is beyond the PADI skillset as Omar mentioned.
See past some of the bad apples and reconsider, you will get so much more out of your diving
As UP said, one first needs to know (feel) what the desired position is. Humans go through life upright. When instinct takes over, the natural tendency is to go to our natural position (vertical). With this as with many other aspects of diving we need to learn new "natural tendencies" because the ones we learn on land don't serve us well under water.
Another thing is that people come in a wide variety of shapes, levels of fitness, flexibility and coordination. For some new students especially those who havent left the coach in 20 or 30 years it can be a challenge to descend in shallow water and have the balance not to flip over and land on their head or back. Some have difficulty learning control and comfort in a weightless environment. These prospective divers may never make the WKPP A-team but they can (read as will) engage in recreational diving. I mention all this because things that seem extremely simple and easy to an accomplished diver or even a new diver with some athletic ability may be very difficult for others.
I dont know that you can address weighting (balance) alone. As technique (the ability to control body position) improves, weighting (balance) can be modified. One trip to the pool or lake may not do the trick with a new diver or worse yet with an instructor who knows what he/she is doing. Given the technique and equipment used, an additional piece of equipment (like ankle weights) may seem appropriate and may help make up for a lack of technique. To fix it I would start from the beginning.
Combine the above factors and you have a tough nut to crack.
Something I do with say an AOW student. After giving them the speach about how much less silty and easier things like navigation will be if we are horizantal both when moving and at rest I do UP's thing with the floor (A technique I picked up from an NACD instructor). Next I take them to the platform. At this point they are weighted as they see fit. These are certified divers (sometimes cocky) and if things are not right I want to show them not tell them. I ask them to hover and swim horizantally, which I am doing in front of them so they have something to look at. Most often they can't and class is on hold until they can at least come close. Now, we start to look at weighting and position. If they are totally ignorent of the process I give them the highlights of the trim lecture that I give my OW syudents (they may have had a different instructor). We work on these basic skills using the edge of the platform as a course until we make some progress. Almost always weight will come off the waist. Often students who thaought they had floaty feet, find out they really have sinking feet. Wet suit divers with thick wet suits usually need weight shifted from the waist toward the head. This is a good time to show some of the advantages of the back plate.
I too once had a drysuit with big boots and I thought I needed ankel weights. It was uncomfortable without the ankle weights but the boots didn't come off. I eventually got a dry suit with boots that fit and I keep the air out of them.
The comment on the 95's is interesting. I know divers (cave divers with good trim and buoyancy control) who swear by them. However, this is the second time in the last couple of days that I have heard the top heavy complaint. I would like to try them.
Why is it that some of you folks can't have a conversation about trim, which could be half way interesting, without making it a padi vs gue thing (which is getting boaring). And...my dad can beat up your dad so there!
Another thing is that people come in a wide variety of shapes, levels of fitness, flexibility and coordination. For some new students especially those who havent left the coach in 20 or 30 years it can be a challenge to descend in shallow water and have the balance not to flip over and land on their head or back. Some have difficulty learning control and comfort in a weightless environment. These prospective divers may never make the WKPP A-team but they can (read as will) engage in recreational diving. I mention all this because things that seem extremely simple and easy to an accomplished diver or even a new diver with some athletic ability may be very difficult for others.
I dont know that you can address weighting (balance) alone. As technique (the ability to control body position) improves, weighting (balance) can be modified. One trip to the pool or lake may not do the trick with a new diver or worse yet with an instructor who knows what he/she is doing. Given the technique and equipment used, an additional piece of equipment (like ankle weights) may seem appropriate and may help make up for a lack of technique. To fix it I would start from the beginning.
Combine the above factors and you have a tough nut to crack.
Something I do with say an AOW student. After giving them the speach about how much less silty and easier things like navigation will be if we are horizantal both when moving and at rest I do UP's thing with the floor (A technique I picked up from an NACD instructor). Next I take them to the platform. At this point they are weighted as they see fit. These are certified divers (sometimes cocky) and if things are not right I want to show them not tell them. I ask them to hover and swim horizantally, which I am doing in front of them so they have something to look at. Most often they can't and class is on hold until they can at least come close. Now, we start to look at weighting and position. If they are totally ignorent of the process I give them the highlights of the trim lecture that I give my OW syudents (they may have had a different instructor). We work on these basic skills using the edge of the platform as a course until we make some progress. Almost always weight will come off the waist. Often students who thaought they had floaty feet, find out they really have sinking feet. Wet suit divers with thick wet suits usually need weight shifted from the waist toward the head. This is a good time to show some of the advantages of the back plate.
I too once had a drysuit with big boots and I thought I needed ankel weights. It was uncomfortable without the ankle weights but the boots didn't come off. I eventually got a dry suit with boots that fit and I keep the air out of them.
The comment on the 95's is interesting. I know divers (cave divers with good trim and buoyancy control) who swear by them. However, this is the second time in the last couple of days that I have heard the top heavy complaint. I would like to try them.
Why is it that some of you folks can't have a conversation about trim, which could be half way interesting, without making it a padi vs gue thing (which is getting boaring). And...my dad can beat up your dad so there!
Got a set of LP 104's, 108's, 112's or 120's (in hydro, never overfilled beyond 10%) you want to trade for 'em? I don't overfill my tanks; these are 13 months since hydro (manufactured in '96), one month since VIP. I've owned 'em since new, so I know they've never been abused.
Rick
No thanks. I like my 104's. Let me rephrase that. I would like to try them without owning them or giving up a set of my 104's. oops...I mean 140's
... oh ponderous bellied one....
would that qualify you for a trencher cert?
~~~~~~~
How to turn 95s or 98s into 104s without overfilling in 4 easy letters:
EBAY
Scheck wrote:
No, I don't think the philosophy is crap, what I really don't understand is why most of those who only swear by DIR can't accept "doing it right" for someone can be different from what they do without being necessarily wrong.
I'll never forget what my Instructor for Nitrox, who has become a friend since, did for me (I was a Rescue diver already, albeit admittedly with not so many dives, I think I was at around 60 at the time, although in just over a year and in very different conditions, from freezing cold dark quarries to Allah's aquarium, most commonly known as the Red Sea).
My very teutonic friend (yes, he is German) went as far as renting an underwater video-camera (we ended up sharing the rental costs, he deserved it) to show me I was basically vertical while diving in a 3mms+lycra suit and obviously without ankle weights; I didn't do much damage except to myself as diving in the Sinai area is basically walls with perhaps 800 mts below (it is the case in Ras Mohammed).
The answer was simple: I was way overweighted.
I managed to get down to 4 kgs. (I had been using 7 for the previous week) and that taught me a very important lesson even for when I dive dry in winter.
I know my drysuit's boots are too big, but for the time being I have no money to get them readjusted
Perhaps one day I'll end up knocking on some of your courses' door, but I'll certainly go to painful lengths before deciding which.
No, I don't think the philosophy is crap, what I really don't understand is why most of those who only swear by DIR can't accept "doing it right" for someone can be different from what they do without being necessarily wrong.
I'll never forget what my Instructor for Nitrox, who has become a friend since, did for me (I was a Rescue diver already, albeit admittedly with not so many dives, I think I was at around 60 at the time, although in just over a year and in very different conditions, from freezing cold dark quarries to Allah's aquarium, most commonly known as the Red Sea).
My very teutonic friend (yes, he is German) went as far as renting an underwater video-camera (we ended up sharing the rental costs, he deserved it) to show me I was basically vertical while diving in a 3mms+lycra suit and obviously without ankle weights; I didn't do much damage except to myself as diving in the Sinai area is basically walls with perhaps 800 mts below (it is the case in Ras Mohammed).
The answer was simple: I was way overweighted.
I managed to get down to 4 kgs. (I had been using 7 for the previous week) and that taught me a very important lesson even for when I dive dry in winter.
I know my drysuit's boots are too big, but for the time being I have no money to get them readjusted
Perhaps one day I'll end up knocking on some of your courses' door, but I'll certainly go to painful lengths before deciding which.
sheck33
Contributor
you wont believe how i wish they'd called something like DIB, Do It Better rather than DIR..........If you can do it Better it doesnt mean you were doing it Wrong previously, people are much more accepting of change that way
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