AMEN!!
And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!
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AMEN!!
Scuba once bubbled...
I think we are all being taken for a ride here!
Since it appears that a fair number of LDS's can afford to turn away any customer that doesn't bend over backwards for them - business must be pretty good.
We never turn away a customer because they won't bend over backwards. We do sometimes have to let one go when they want us to bend over further than we are able.
Many times the state statutes are available online. Look for something that relates to Sales in the Uniform Commercial Code. It may also be called Article 2.
There are also federal statutes that have an effect upon warranties.
Lawman, save me some Westlaw time. Does Magnosson-Moss (sp?) apply here (its been awhile since I did straight commercial work)?
If you can't find what you're looking for, check out the local law library (possibly at the court house or in the nearest law school).
This stuff is not legal advice. I'm just telling you where to find it. You need to figure out how to apply it yourself.
yknot
Guest
Mostly, the LDS owners have brought this on themselves. When I look at the price tag at some LDS's (always the little white hand written ones, usually turned upsidedown for items in a case) and the price is $200 or $300 higher than Leisure Pro, I wonder why. Multiply this over all the items required in a set of gear. Without Leisure Pro to use as a sanity check when dealing with my LDS I would have easily spent $1000 minimum over what my gear cost me. I have 5 boys that are either certified, in training, or waiting until they are old enough for scuba. I COULD NOT afford for my family to dive without companies like Leisure Pro. I can't negotiate volume with the LDS's in my area because we can't all gear up at the same time. Should my family be denied the joy of diving because of an inferior business model? If you want to keep treating scuba diving like some elitist snob sport with the accompianing high priced gear, so be it. It was the initial high prices that kept me from certification and dive gear in the first place. You shouldn't have to be wealthy to enjoy this sport. There is enough info available for me to make reasonable decisions about my gear without wasting anybodies time at an LDS and in those cases I have purchased and will continue to purchase items online.
SMKChef
Contributor
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
This stuff is not legal advice. I'm just telling you where to find it. You need to figure out how to apply it yourself.
I didn't think it was. If it was there would have been some sort of service fee. Where do I send the tip?
norcaldiver
Guest
Here's my thing....
This was taken from the LP site.
Leisure Pro buyers travel worldwide to acquire the finest products at the lowest prices possible. Since, on some of the items we do not buy directly from the manufacturer, we are not bound by official/unofficial manufacturer's suggested retail price and can pass on the tremendous savings to you, our valued customer.
Umm, where do they get their stuff from then, a shaddy store manager? Off the back of a truck that was stolen? From stores that are closing and don't care about the dealership anymore? Shaddy subcontractors of the protected line (as was the case of their suit a while back, i think)
They carry a buttload of stuff that is "protected". So why are they still in biz, and why can't the manufacturers stop the appearant high flow of their products going out the LP door?
Another thing is, if this price fixing is so illegal, why has it been allowed to continue? There are enough lawyers that dive, I'd think someone would have jumped all over this already...
This was taken from the LP site.
Leisure Pro buyers travel worldwide to acquire the finest products at the lowest prices possible. Since, on some of the items we do not buy directly from the manufacturer, we are not bound by official/unofficial manufacturer's suggested retail price and can pass on the tremendous savings to you, our valued customer.
Umm, where do they get their stuff from then, a shaddy store manager? Off the back of a truck that was stolen? From stores that are closing and don't care about the dealership anymore? Shaddy subcontractors of the protected line (as was the case of their suit a while back, i think)
They carry a buttload of stuff that is "protected". So why are they still in biz, and why can't the manufacturers stop the appearant high flow of their products going out the LP door?
Another thing is, if this price fixing is so illegal, why has it been allowed to continue? There are enough lawyers that dive, I'd think someone would have jumped all over this already...
You misunderstand. The information stealer is not a customer; he is a thief, a shoplifter of my time and knowledge. I don't care whether he is satisfied or not as long as I eliminate the theft.
E. itajara
yknot
Guest
Norcaldiver- at what point will folks start thinking of the manufacturers as guilty parties in all of this? In addition to Leisure Pro, look at some of the other internet resellers on ebay. Can that volume of gear be coming only thru back channels? Don't you think a LDS could hold a going out of business sale and at leat sell their stock for cost? With my very limited legal knowledge, I would bet that since no single customer has suffered sufficient financial harm due to price fixing that no lawyer has been willing to sue a scuba equip. manufacturer (at leasts on a contingency basis). How big is a company such as ScubaPro? Could they fight a class action suit? I bet if some of the same strong arm tactics were applied to them as to their dealers they would change their ways real fast.
Really?
Exactly what is that person "stealing"? How can you "steal" something that another gives freely?
Oh, you mean that you only give it to people who will BUY? What if they decide not to for some reason? What if they don't like you? Your product? Your store? Your attitude? Do you post this policy conspicuously at the door to your store - "don't even come in this door unless your wallet is in hand, and you WILL buy something, because as soon as you ask the first question you are OBLIGATED to purchase!"
You don't do that? Why not? If that's your attitude, what's the problem? Is it that you're concerned that if you DID post such a sign NOBODY would come in the door?
In that case I'd say that you're a liar at best and perhaps a fraud and extortionist at worst, since you're hardly disclosing the terms of your "advice" before someone consumes it!
How come as a seller you think its perfectly ok to have this attitude - that a potential customer who comes in asking questions is STEALING unless he buys - while the customer who thinks that a crappy attitude and worse prices are not valid reasons to show YOU the back of THEIR head?
What is this one-sided narcissism that I see displayed here?
My, what a big head you have.
Exactly what is that person "stealing"? How can you "steal" something that another gives freely?
Oh, you mean that you only give it to people who will BUY? What if they decide not to for some reason? What if they don't like you? Your product? Your store? Your attitude? Do you post this policy conspicuously at the door to your store - "don't even come in this door unless your wallet is in hand, and you WILL buy something, because as soon as you ask the first question you are OBLIGATED to purchase!"
You don't do that? Why not? If that's your attitude, what's the problem? Is it that you're concerned that if you DID post such a sign NOBODY would come in the door?
In that case I'd say that you're a liar at best and perhaps a fraud and extortionist at worst, since you're hardly disclosing the terms of your "advice" before someone consumes it!
How come as a seller you think its perfectly ok to have this attitude - that a potential customer who comes in asking questions is STEALING unless he buys - while the customer who thinks that a crappy attitude and worse prices are not valid reasons to show YOU the back of THEIR head?
What is this one-sided narcissism that I see displayed here?
My, what a big head you have.
Unfortunately a smart diver can have their cake and eat it too. The can walk into a shop and spend hours picking the brain of the dive pro behind the counter and then go home fire up the computer and take advantage of the great prices at LP. LP is happy the diver is happy and the dive pro behind the counter spent all day lecturing for free. And...if they were in my store they had free access to books, video's and even coffee. Of course not everyone takes advantage this way but we see plenty of them. After a while one gets shy about helping folks out. That's bad for every one. It's bad for us because we're afraid to use our knowlege to attract business and it's bad for divers because they lose a source of info.
Somehow the dive pro behind the counter has to be paid for and we haven't found a way to do that on LP prices. We ARE selling things cheaper and cheaper. We ARE doing MORE and MORE favors and offering MORE and MORe incentives to buy from us. Our profit though has gone down even though the number of items sold has gone up. You see since we are limited to a local market for most items the volume isn't there no matter how low the price. We have many divers locally who only dive on vacation. Word of mouth does no good if divers only hang with other divers out of the country. Something like one percent of the population are divers and they are spread thin in many areas. So far all we have done by lowering prices is to give ouselves more work with less pay. The only way a dive shop has a chance is if they are allowed to tap the same world wide market that the discount dealers have. That won't happen til the manufacturers change the way they do business.
Of course there is an alternative and that is to pump OW students through skimpy classes like there is no tomarrow and push all the cheap junk off on them you can before they learn better. That's how it is done by all the shops I know of who are making real money. There is money in this but were not interested in having a job like that. There are lots of jobs I don't want and that's one of them.
Somehow the dive pro behind the counter has to be paid for and we haven't found a way to do that on LP prices. We ARE selling things cheaper and cheaper. We ARE doing MORE and MORE favors and offering MORE and MORe incentives to buy from us. Our profit though has gone down even though the number of items sold has gone up. You see since we are limited to a local market for most items the volume isn't there no matter how low the price. We have many divers locally who only dive on vacation. Word of mouth does no good if divers only hang with other divers out of the country. Something like one percent of the population are divers and they are spread thin in many areas. So far all we have done by lowering prices is to give ouselves more work with less pay. The only way a dive shop has a chance is if they are allowed to tap the same world wide market that the discount dealers have. That won't happen til the manufacturers change the way they do business.
Of course there is an alternative and that is to pump OW students through skimpy classes like there is no tomarrow and push all the cheap junk off on them you can before they learn better. That's how it is done by all the shops I know of who are making real money. There is money in this but were not interested in having a job like that. There are lots of jobs I don't want and that's one of them.
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