Anchors away!!

[canuckdiver]

I tend to agree with you WW, government intervention is not the most pleasant way of solving the issue.
I don't know that I agree with EITHER governments standpoint on this one. The canadian government is too restrictive, and the u.s. seems to go a bit farr to the other extreme.

again, only my opinion

 

[Bubble Boy]

I could be wrong (it definitely would not be the first time) but I thought there was a guy a couple years ago that grabbed some stuff of the Canadian side and brought it back to the states and got away with it under the savage regulations of NY state but then the IRS & US Customs went after him for failure to declare the importation of a valuable asset.

Just look at the stuff taken off of and the damage done to the Keystorm in the last few years. Even the Munson in Kingston has had stuff taken off of her in the last couple of years.

Education is the key and SOS and POW are very active in this regard.

 

[DivingGal]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...
... Just look at the stuff taken off of and the damage done to the Keystorm in the last few years. Even the Munson in Kingston has had stuff taken off of her in the last couple of years.

Education is the key and SOS and POW are very active in this regard.

Couldn't have said it better.

The NAS courses given by Peter E, also help along the road to educating what valuable assets we have u/w. In his lectures Pete relates many occurences of not-so-nice folks taking things which are not for the taking. Preservation of artefacts is only part of the whole story.

 

[SDAnderson]

taz22 once bubbled...


Are your seriously agreeing with what these people are doing??

I don't think it is a pissing match. I think Brian has made some very good points that need to be addressed.

What is comes down to is some smuck taking valuable artifacts from there resting place where they should be and this type of blantant robbery should stop.

I'm not agreeing with anything - I asked some (leading) questions that have been largely ignored.

Brian Prince states "that NY laws are very inadequate to protect heritage resources." I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this statement, however I'm one of those cranks that likes to be careful about passing laws - for a variety of reasons - and before I endorse a law that would make the removal of this anchor a crime, I'd like for someone to demonstrate that it's an important piece of cultural heritage.

Brian also states that Northeast Aquanauts is a "group of renegade divers." Although they are certainly thumbing their noses at Mr. Prince, "renegade" means an individual who rejects lawful or conventional behavior. Mr. Prince seems to acknowledge in his letter that there are no laws or regulations being violated ("..the case...seems to qualify only for a private slap on the wrist.") although later he states otherwise ("they are publicly displaying and have documented the illegal removal of marine artifacts"). Clearly there exists no consensus regarding this issue among divers or the general public. Therefore referring to the group as renegades can be considered insulting and inflammatory - you know that this is how the NE Aquanauts perceive the comment.

I repeat: this seems to be two diametrically opposed groups that are resorting to insult and innuendo in an attempt to achieve their goals. In the vernacular, that's called a pi**ing match. Both sides would be better served by turning down the heat and expending more energy on rational persuasion.

The fundamental issues at the center of this argument seem to be:

• Does society have a legitimate interest in protecting or acquiring "cultural artifacts" such as this anchor?
• If so, is that interest great enough to warrant the use by the state of coercive and punitive force to support?

Finally, the issue of cultural hegemony lurks in this matter. I'm sure that every Canadian on this board can relate to the knee-jerk resentment that results from foreign nationals attempting to impose their values on what most perceive as a strictly domestic issue. The fact that it's Canadians trying to impose their standards on Americans is only an ironic twist - unless this is going to start an affirmative action argument, as well.

Steven

Oh, and by the way, it's spelled schmuck (even in Canada), it's Yiddish and it means "penis." If you're going to be insulting, at least spell it correctly.

 

[taz22]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

what it comes down to is some folks are of the mind that valuable artifacts belong to the finder and other folks are of the mind that valuable artifacts belong to the government.

What is your view on the subject?

One mind is finders keepers losers weepers the other believes that preservation of the wreck as a whole is the way to go.

I am of the mind that the wreck is a wreck and should be left in tact for all to enjoy. The thought of some jerk taken an anchor just to have it on his/her front lawn as a prize I find truly unacceptable.

 

[sparky30]

taz22 once bubbled...


I am of the mind that the wreck is a wreck and should be left in tact for all to enjoy.

I completely agree... diving would be pretty boring of all he wrecks were picked clean... Its sad to see that we even need laws to prevent this type of activity. An old anchor left on the wreck it blongs too is much more exciting than an old anchor sitting on someones front lawn next to a flower bed.
While I realize that most Americans feel that someone is medling in an internal affair, I am sure they would do the same thing if the roles were reversed.
As far as I'm concered as long as the artifact hunting in confined to the US side of the border, go ahead.. raise all the artifacts you want. Its your country, you can do what you want, but please don't try to do the same thing on our side.. We enjoy our wrecks intact... We may never agree on the topic, but its a big Lake with more than enough room to both of us..
Besides.. after your side is all picked clean and boring, feel free to come on over (but don't take anything )...

 

[SDAnderson]

sparky30 once bubbled...

I completely agree... diving would be pretty boring of all he wrecks were picked clean...
Couldn't agree with you more. Most wrecks - everywhere - have been picked clean of the best bits and it's a damn shame.

Its sad to see that we even need laws to prevent this type of activity.
I'm less than certain that passing laws is the best answer. Maybe a calm, rational and friendly program of education would be more effective.

An old anchor left on the wreck it blongs too is much more exciting than an old anchor sitting on someones front lawn next to a flower bed.
Definitely. Although I do have a photo of a group of us posed in front of this really huge prop that someone recovered...

While I realize that most Americans feel that someone is medling in an internal affair, I am sure they would do the same thing if the roles were reversed.
There is a distinctly more "communal" feel to Canadian society, vis a vis the American "independent" spirit. Canadians have outlawed wreck scavenging, which Americans will tend to see as a decision that fails to achieve a satisfactory balance between the rights of the group and the rights of the individual. Americans are reluctant to declare everything on the bottom of anything as community property, which Canadians see as an abrogation of civic responsibility. We are (I hope) good enough friends that we can discuss these issues. We are (also, I hope) understanding enough to realize that no matter how close our friendship, when the conversation shifts from friendly discourse to name-calling and propaganda, not much is going to be achieved.

As far as I'm concered as long as the artifact hunting in confined to the US side of the border, go ahead.. raise all the artifacts you want.
An important point - and one that appears to be germaine to the issue at hand. Where was this anchor located?

Its your country, you can do what you want, but please don't try to do the same thing on our side.. We enjoy our wrecks intact... We may never agree on the topic, but its a big Lake with more than enough room to both of us..
A good place to start, but let's keep working at coming to some sort of mutually satisfactory agreement - especially in areas where we share a common resource like the St. Lawrence.

Besides.. after your side is all picked clean and boring, feel free to come on over (but don't take anything )...
We're on our way! :cold: Well, maybe we'll wait till this summer...

Steven

 

[BmP]

Hello to All,

I've been invited to join in the conversation as would like to answer some of your questions....

Is this Canada or the US? Clayton NY is in the USA on the St. Lawrence River near Alexandria Bay NY on the St. Lawrence River one of the worlds greatest waterways leading to the worlds largest bodies of freshwater. Truely one of the best Freshwater Diving locales in the world. 100 Divers on a single wreck at one time on a weekend indicates this. There are 20+ charter operators working in and around the 1000 Islands.

Am I a government employee? NO, I'm self employed in the computer consulting business and volunteer to help preserve our marine heritage by designing plaques (U/W, shore based), webmaster the SOS website (http://www.SaveOntarioShipwrecks.on.ca), project manage and participate in the buoy program placing buoys on Ontario Shipwrecks to avoid anchor damage (50 new ones going in summer 2003 across Ontario), write for the newsletter, update the SOS bylaws and much more.

Why stick my nose in USA business? The way many of us look at it is that sites and drift dives on the US side are just as important as those on the Canadian side. The invisible dotted line between the countries is just a customs related demarkation. We enjoy them all and want our diving to be interesting. We loose artifacts on both sides and education is the most important key to success. This can be accomplished by peer pressure, presentations, speaking up, attending dive conferences etc.

What's the big deal about an Anchor in the middle of no place anyways? Simple, something to make the dive interesting... Something to make you wonder how it got there (was it part of the wreck over yonder, just dropped off a passing ship, helped to avoid a grounding). Everthing on the bottom tells a story based on where it is, the design style eluding to the date made/used, what else is near to it just for starters.

US Laws versus Canadian Laws... They are about equal in intent, but less equal in wording and enforcement. My letter posted above was to a US official who has the power to help change the situation. The fact remains, both sides require you to apply for a license to disturb, move or remove anything on land or underwater.

Definition of Renegade Divers... Don't over analyze things please! The point is everyone needs to help spread the word that taking from the bottom is paramount to taking from all of us. Do you want a boring dive or do you want to see something other than rocks, silt, clay and zebra muscles, fish, weeds or corals? Think of shipwrecks with all the found tools layed out on the deck for everyone to enjoy... Where would these tools be if someone took them? In their garage or basement disintegrating... Don't laugh, we have a few sites like this... Everyone respects them and leave all for everyone to enjoy.

Why Not put these items in museums for divers and the public? Sounds good, but not practicle. Museums only have room to display less than 5% of their collection. The rest are stored at great cost to taxpayers. Conservation is very costly... An example is of a Ships Wheel that was removed from an Artic wreck of the Breadalbane that has been in storage for 15 years in a cooled nitrogenated water bath because of lack of conservation technology and has now taken 4 years to conserve at a cost of about $60K. Get the full story from the 22 page booklet on the SOS website (URL above) called "Preserving Our Marine Heritage".

Freshwater VS. Salt Water? Cold Freshwater will preserve artifacts for 100's of years. Buried in the silt in Freshwater will preserve artifacts for 1000's of years. We can barely do 100 years in the air today at enormous cost. Salt water quickly destroys artifacts, so some think I better take it before it is gone forever. How many of these actually get conserved - treated to inhibit decay? How many will ever be on public display?

This is getting long and I'm not here to rant, just help spread the word that many of us enjoy seeing stuff on the bottom when we dive. Rules or not, it does us all better (and the artifacts too) if we keep things where they are and just enjoy them. There are a decreasing few who still think finders keepers and think nothing of the consequences to the artifact(s) and the diving public.

I hope this helps clarify my position and that of SOS.

Yours in Diving,
Brian

 

[WreckWriter]

Your position here is stated quite eloquently and makes a lot of sense. The problem I have is with your previously posted letter suggesting such things as confiscation of personal property of the "renegade divers" who chose not to play by your rules.

Once again, the U.S. has plenty of our own well meaning but misguided persons who would have every aspect of our lives regulated by the government, we don't need any help from you.

WW

 

[BmP]

Thx for your response. I don't want to dabble in law making, but when it affects all of us someone has to put presure on the officials to do something about it. We do it here as well and you are welcome to help out if it affects you. There are a few bad guys on both sides and we have to work together.

Who was it that said something like:

"If you do the crime, you should be prepared to do the time"

"Ignorance is no excuse for the law"

We both have much harsher laws and punishments for much less. When a Charter Operator is involved, a large Marina and a well organized group launching expeditions to a fresh cache of stuff already well preserved, it is at all our expenses. Making an example of wrong behaviour might help educate or deter (whichever is appropriate to them) those few hard to reason with people and get thier attention. Even the suggestion of such might help at this point.

If it was just a simple person making a small mistake we would be helping to convince them and assist them to put it back with no fanfare. That has clearly not worked yet in this case. Their website speaks for itself and the unfortunate need to raise the stakes.

BmP

PS: They are not my rules... They are the laws that exist and the socially accepted practices that most believe in.